Extraction Time Question
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cafemakers
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- Nov 3, 2004
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I believe his objection was that a triple basket for a double shot would promote recurring underextraction. Could be wrong, I've lost track of the point.
espresso98072
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- Oct 18, 2004
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triple basket issue in a double
Hmmm. I find it odd that some of you out there do not understand coffee that well. A triple basket would never under exstract coffee. Under extraction is cause by having not enough of the serface area of the bean exposed to the exstraction process. A lack of understanding of the grind is most to blame, or low machine temps. A triple basket would never, and I mean never be the cause. There are some machines that this practice is a given like the La San Marco. The basket is tall and narrow and this is a trick used to extract a nice sweet shot. As far as the single basket, well again barista trainer is right. A single promotes forced channeling just because of the design. If you look closely to the design, it has 1/2 as many holes forced to the center like a cone. The bottom center of the basket will and does have more water going through it. You can argue this all you like, but physics govern this process. You can't escape them nore ignore them. Mr. Cafe makers and mean Joe Bean, I welcome argument on THIS topic all day long.
P.S. Where do you guys get your basis of facts? Just curious.
Hmmm. I find it odd that some of you out there do not understand coffee that well. A triple basket would never under exstract coffee. Under extraction is cause by having not enough of the serface area of the bean exposed to the exstraction process. A lack of understanding of the grind is most to blame, or low machine temps. A triple basket would never, and I mean never be the cause. There are some machines that this practice is a given like the La San Marco. The basket is tall and narrow and this is a trick used to extract a nice sweet shot. As far as the single basket, well again barista trainer is right. A single promotes forced channeling just because of the design. If you look closely to the design, it has 1/2 as many holes forced to the center like a cone. The bottom center of the basket will and does have more water going through it. You can argue this all you like, but physics govern this process. You can't escape them nore ignore them. Mr. Cafe makers and mean Joe Bean, I welcome argument on THIS topic all day long.
P.S. Where do you guys get your basis of facts? Just curious.
marco.crazy
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- Nov 25, 2004
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guess what america has done it again!! :roll: !taking a perfect espresso 30sec extraction and made it in to a 15-20sec joke!!!!well where are all the espresso warriors!!!am i on my own in the uk!!! americans need to come to the uk and see what they have done!! the rest of europe laughs at them "Americans think they know it all"
why dont they call it something else instead of an 'espresso'
BECAUSE ITS NOT :evil:
why dont they call it something else instead of an 'espresso'
BECAUSE ITS NOT :evil:
MeanJoeBean
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- Nov 19, 2004
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Ok, let me get one thing straight....when you all are using your triple baskets in your double portafilters, how much coffee are you dosing? Enough for a double or a triple?
If it's enough for a double than you are promoting underextraction, since you are now adding more space for the the puck to expand. Right? I'm no engineer here, but that makes sense to me.
Also, what type of equipment are we talking about? LM, Astoria, Faema, Simonelli etc.
I too, welcome discussion on this topic, while sipping on my single shot created by a "channel-promoting" single basket.
-Joe
If it's enough for a double than you are promoting underextraction, since you are now adding more space for the the puck to expand. Right? I'm no engineer here, but that makes sense to me.
Also, what type of equipment are we talking about? LM, Astoria, Faema, Simonelli etc.
I too, welcome discussion on this topic, while sipping on my single shot created by a "channel-promoting" single basket.
-Joe
I will do some testing with the single basket in our "naked"portafilter...it seems that such a shap would promote channeling...but I'd like to see it. We use 21g for our tripple ristrettos baby!
-C.D.
P.S. I believe that the puck will only expand so far...ie: it can only expand so much before it is balanced by the pressure of the brew water down onto it...so is'nt the real questing constant flow rate?
-C.D.
P.S. I believe that the puck will only expand so far...ie: it can only expand so much before it is balanced by the pressure of the brew water down onto it...so is'nt the real questing constant flow rate?
So we should be tired of discussions that don't resolve themselves in a postings?...come on.
I do think that if there is too much room between the puck and the disperssion screen that the first bits of water hit the coffee will cause it to"bloom" a little before the rest of the brew water fills in thew air gap and puts even pressure on the puck, causeing channeling by way of a weak spot.Any wa it sounds like a bad idea to dose for a double using a tripple basket.
-CD.
I do think that if there is too much room between the puck and the disperssion screen that the first bits of water hit the coffee will cause it to"bloom" a little before the rest of the brew water fills in thew air gap and puts even pressure on the puck, causeing channeling by way of a weak spot.Any wa it sounds like a bad idea to dose for a double using a tripple basket.
-CD.
MeanJoeBean
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- Nov 19, 2004
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Sorry, I was on vacation pulling sweet single shots on a 3 group lever action Victoria Arduino.
I get the basis of my information from first hand knowledge....
Anyway, back to the matter at hand. I was just wondering about the triple basket and how much people dosed for it as I have not experienced a triple ristretto....the whole idea of a triple portafilter in the first place is lame to me.
To each their own...
-Joe
I get the basis of my information from first hand knowledge....
Anyway, back to the matter at hand. I was just wondering about the triple basket and how much people dosed for it as I have not experienced a triple ristretto....the whole idea of a triple portafilter in the first place is lame to me.
To each their own...
-Joe
How is the idea of using more coffee for a fuller extraction in the espresso process lame? Different, yes. Better tasting...some think so. But lame?
Espresso is a young culinary art form that has evolved through many different ideas. The proof of these ideas are in the cup. Does it make it taste better? Why? or why not?...is a question that is harder to judge than the question Does it taste worse...but you have to learn hands on before dismissing an idea that is presented as a possible next step in the evolution of espresso process and quality.
Ideas come along and usually have alot of pomp and circumstance...but we need to, much like the Forman Grill, cut the fat, not the flavor. Once you stop being a hands on learner in fine espresso, fine espresso (at least in the hands of the apathetic, the one who has "arrived") will die.
All that to say, no pun intended, give it a shot.
And remember that we must get our hands wet when taking the baby out of the bath water.
-Chris Deferio
Espresso is a young culinary art form that has evolved through many different ideas. The proof of these ideas are in the cup. Does it make it taste better? Why? or why not?...is a question that is harder to judge than the question Does it taste worse...but you have to learn hands on before dismissing an idea that is presented as a possible next step in the evolution of espresso process and quality.
Ideas come along and usually have alot of pomp and circumstance...but we need to, much like the Forman Grill, cut the fat, not the flavor. Once you stop being a hands on learner in fine espresso, fine espresso (at least in the hands of the apathetic, the one who has "arrived") will die.
All that to say, no pun intended, give it a shot.
And remember that we must get our hands wet when taking the baby out of the bath water.
-Chris Deferio
ElPugDiablo
New member
- Jul 16, 2004
- 991
- 1
bt, please clarify your point for me. If you use a 14 gram double basket to pull two shots, you then serve one and chill the other, your customer is really getting 7 gram for the 1 oz shot you served, you just like the water distribution of the double basket better. Okay, I understand your point so far. But if you use a 21 gram triple basket to pull a double shots (2 oz), now you are using 10.5 gram for each 1 oz shot. Doesn't that alter the flavor between a single and a double? In another word, if I order 2 cups of espresso ristretto, one for me and one for my wife, you will use the 14 gram basket, but if I order a double espresso just for me, you will use the 21 gram triple basket?
BaristaTrainer
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- Oct 18, 2004
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My post about the triple basket was simply showing that baristas are trying new methods. Chris Deferio was the first person to share this idea with me.
Again, by using more espresso you can expect a fuller extraction if prepared correctly. When talking about double and triple and single shots ... let's pretend we are using a naked portafilter ... this should make more sense. The spouts only direct the coffee ... I have seen double baskets used in single spout portafilters ... it is all preference.
Chris ... you use these in your bar right? Any feedback ... yet again?
BT
Again, by using more espresso you can expect a fuller extraction if prepared correctly. When talking about double and triple and single shots ... let's pretend we are using a naked portafilter ... this should make more sense. The spouts only direct the coffee ... I have seen double baskets used in single spout portafilters ... it is all preference.
Chris ... you use these in your bar right? Any feedback ... yet again?
BT
Yes, We switched all our Portafilters to the Bottomless ones. We did some testing of course before making the descision...we like what it does for the coffee. First of all the worry of getting a brassy shot is almost eliminated because the coffee only touches the stainless steel filter basket. There is no worry of coffee sludge build up at the base of the Porta(it's been removed) that makes a shot bitter after a slam on the bar. It preserves tons of crema adding a roundness and depth that is unbelievable...(I can't believe it's not butta)
And the sugars seem to be magnified as a result of the crema preservation.
They are also very easy to clean...just tip upsidedown and rinse...thats pretty much it.
We had to adjust our time parameters a bit so now we tell the Baristas that from the time the pump is activated to the time you see coffee first start to come out...should be 5-6 seconds...where as before...since it had to hit the bottom and roll out...it was 8-12 sec.
Finally...you get to see you mistakes as the shot pulls...where you were uneven etc...cause it will blonde on that side or channel etc.
So things are lookin u[p right now, lots a positive feedback.
Long live inginuity,
-Chris Deferio
And the sugars seem to be magnified as a result of the crema preservation.
They are also very easy to clean...just tip upsidedown and rinse...thats pretty much it.
We had to adjust our time parameters a bit so now we tell the Baristas that from the time the pump is activated to the time you see coffee first start to come out...should be 5-6 seconds...where as before...since it had to hit the bottom and roll out...it was 8-12 sec.
Finally...you get to see you mistakes as the shot pulls...where you were uneven etc...cause it will blonde on that side or channel etc.
So things are lookin u[p right now, lots a positive feedback.
Long live inginuity,
-Chris Deferio
MeanJoeBean
New member
- Nov 19, 2004
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I wasn't calling triple portafilters lame as an attack on anyone...except maybe the manufacturers, but they probably made them for a reason. I'd throw that one in the desk drawer before the single.
When it comes to the naked portafilters.....I think they're nice, but not everyone will go for it. I've used both, and there are positives and negatives to each.
as for the triple basket...ElPugDiablo hit it on the head. After dosing the triple basket, are you pulling for a double or triple shot?
-Joe
When it comes to the naked portafilters.....I think they're nice, but not everyone will go for it. I've used both, and there are positives and negatives to each.
as for the triple basket...ElPugDiablo hit it on the head. After dosing the triple basket, are you pulling for a double or triple shot?
-Joe
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