Extraction Time Question

[Alun_evans]

Recently I was at the Coffee/Tea World Cup Singapore and heard quite a lot of debate on the subject of Espresso. It does indeed seem that there is a polarization between the Italians and the Americans regarding exactly what is espresso. The Italians I talked to were adamant that there was only one true way to make espresso....ie 7 grams of coffee- extraction time 24-28 seconds. Their opinion (and this was not just a singular opinion) was that if these parameters were not adhered to then the drink extracted could simply not be called espresso! Funnily the barista championship at the World Cup had a pretty well known Barista competing. He told the audience that basically the more ground coffee you got into the portafilter the better....ie: toss the 7gm rule out the window. The debate got so intense that many of the Europeans were commenting that "espresso" should be like "champagne"...ie: as it is a drink originating in Italy only the origin should be allowed to call an espresso an espresso! It was all very interesting and a lot of the debate was (I think) the old school vs those from the Americas. Being a neutral in this area I had the opportunity to hearboth sides but reserve my judgement on whether I agree with the trditionalists or the revisionists

 

[topher]

Alun...how was the show overall? Did you run into our buddy from monster? I remember him saying he would be there and that he wanted to hook up with you to show his machine off...so what's the deal? Inquiring minds want to know 8)

 

[javahill]

I get a kick out of the champagne thing. That was secured by the French in the Treaty of Versailles. What did securing the name "champagne" to sparkling wines made from grapes grown in the Champage region of France have to do with securing the peace after the first World War? Absolutely nothing. But they got it in the treaty. Sounds like our Congressional lobbyists have a role model in the French...

I do not believe we are at any risk of the Italians securing legal rights to "espresso" during any multi-national treaty won by a victorious and vindictive Italian army.

I don't remember the details of the jokes I heard in elementary school, but I remember the Italian military was the butt of them. Shortest books in history. Screen doors on submarines. I guess they are coming back.

Anyway, without a military victory, whatever chatter there is about a national claim to "espresso" sounds about as pathetic as... I'm at a loss for words. I can't think of anything that pathetic.

Historical note - the French did not invent or name French Fries.

 

[Alun_evans]

Hey Topher! The show was excellent, well worth the visit. I saw the stand with the air roaster machine....but I regret to say that I did not have a chance to meet George . I will be back over in Singapore in the not too distant future and hope to catch up with him then.

Being originally from the antipodes we are kind of the new, new world! So its funny to see the rivalry between Europe and the US. Hehehe...maybe its similar to us and China with "Kiwifruit" (AKA Chinese gooseberry) .

Seriously though it was good to see such a big turnout for the exhibition....the future looks bright for specialty coffee in Asia.

 

[BaristaTrainer]

The whole 7 grams per shot is just an average. It is thrown out the window when you factor in that darker roasted coffees weigh much less than lighter roasted coffees. Also many roasters are now bringing their espresso roast to a lighter profile since it is more profitable, and can still taste great as espresso.

In some cases you may be able to fit well over 7 grams into a portifilter of a very dark roasted coffee and maybe only 6 grams of a light roast.

The shot peramiters should still be the same though and will depend on your grind, 25-30 seconds.

 

[Alun_evans]

BT...can see you are not an Italian :wink: !

 

[javahill]

When I was in grad school in Switzerland, one of my classmates was a Sicilian Protestant who hated Italy, loved Germany, made the best tiramisu on the planet and, as I found out a few years after graduation, had a sex change operation. There are all kinds of Italians.

Fun fact about the birth rate in Italy. Current projections show the population of the country, including immigration from former soviet block countries and Turkey, to fall by 30 percent by 2050. The main reason is that Italian woman are fed up with Italian men.

The distribution of household labor has not changed, but women are working in record numbers. In norther Europe, the distribution of household tasks is more equitably split between men and women and the divorce rate is lower and the birth rate is higher.

The traditional italian is going to have to change or they will die off. So much for tradition in a changing world.

 

[bluecoffee]

About the change of topic. It´s true, the world is changing, for example I was reading about statistics in Denmark and the singles are growing and the single parents too. I guess is the same for the rest of scandinavia. And for the Italian, they are very original like the guy that you say Javahill :shock: . And I know because my ancestors were italians, they are crazy! :-D too much expressos, I guess
And finally about the women, we are a new generation!!! go girls!

 

[deferio]

Espresso is what it is because of the pressure. The pressure hits the coffee and the coffee offers resistance...trapping the water in the potafilter. While the water is under pressure and trapped in the confined envirnment of the portafilter it invades the inner cell walls of the ground coffee...extracting the flavor components and complexities that drip using just gravity could not...this is where crema comes from. So the less time the water is trapped in the portafilter...the less opportunity it will have to draw out the sugars fats etc. that make espresso...it needs time to draw out the flavors and then bring them to the cup. (this is why Illy has specific standards) Without this....it is just drip coffee.
I would say that a 16 sec shot is way off in terms of being able to bleed the coffee of it's full potential into the cup. Roast profile and blend have nothing to do with it. :roll:
love,
-C.D.

 

[Coffee Guy]

Although I appreciate the Espresso 101 and all, I'm not surprised by somes resistance to change. In fact new improvements to this industry take place all of the time. I'm equally surprised that there are a lot of folks hanging on this 16 second shot comment. What is it with the 16 second shot??? If you are paying attention, I said that 16 seconds is the very minimum, not the rule. And to the "Out of the closet experts"...I would challenge you to tell the difference between a 16-20 second pull and a 25-30 pull blind folded. The true test is in the taste and what you perfer. Those pull times are just references and not absolutes. Why do you think there is a range? Otherwise if there were absolute pull times you would not deviate from the time. And as for the comment..."Roast profile and blend have nothing to do with it" I'd say either you are crazy, or you have not clue what roasting is about. :shock:

 

[deferio]

How many grams are you using that 16 seconds is a minimum? And as far as adapting to the industry ...if you concern, in the drive thru environment is -what is the minimum I can get away with before my coffee sucks-... then why not switch to pods?
cd

 

[deferio]

So if roast profile and blend DO have something to do with it....what you are saying is that you have discovered a roast profile or blend that makes the flavor in a shot pulled at 16-20 sec...Identical to one pulled25-30 sec. Have you done that test? 10 sec sure is a long time in espresso...seems like there would be some taste difference. But the industry is always evolving I guess...new technology and all...I'm curious as to what, in the industry has evolved to allow for this(if it is true) monumental shift in accepted espresso theory?
Please share. I'm sure Illy would love to know.

(cricket) (cricket)

-c.d.

 

[Coffee Guy]

Well CD, with all due respect to Dr. Illy and those before him. They started everyone with the basics. Now the time has come when things can and do change. And don't assume to put words in my mouth or do my thinking. First let me clarify a point, good espresso is determined by the person(s) drinking it...Now with that being said, on with the post. Never once have I said that that a 16-20 pull was identical in taste to a 25-30 pull. However, I will say this, our blends and roast profiles do hold up well, and make a great espresso using those times. As for the use of pods??? You must be joking, right? I'm not sure who came up with the idea originally, (I've only seen it in Illy), but that seems contadictory to freshly ground coffee. As for the measurement in coffee, that will depend more on the basket than an exact gram weight. I'm sure you know that not all baskets come out with the same consistant weight, that is the reason that most have a fill line in them. I'd love nothing more than continue to beat this dead horse. But I'd rather move on to something more entertaining. 8)

 

[deferio]

Fair enough...I require shots.
-c

 

[BaristaTrainer]

Dr. Illy had a patent on pods that he only has realeased in the past few years ... I feel they have there place, along with super autos in certain applications ... not coffee houses or drive-thrus but restaurants and offices.

the bottom line here CG is that you are dealing with a market (drive-thrus) where across the board quality is often sacrificed. I wish this BS about needing to do things quicker in a DT would stop! One should invest more in training your employees and clients, a skilled barista can single handedly work the busiest DT anywhere and make excellent drinks (perfect shots and latte art included) faster than two unskilled baristi.

"we have developed our blends to where you can pull wonderful shots between 16-22 seconds." - CG

Be open to learning from this board ... education should of course be ongoing ... just make sure what you teach is true :wink: