Extraction Time Question

[phaelon56]

Phew...phaelon56 I am glad you wrote that...I have used the swift grinders a couple of times...didn't like it. You are the first person who has said that it does o.k. everyone else swear by them....call my old fashioned but I like to tamp my own coffee... :wink:

I'll be the first to tell you that the LM Swift does NOT and never will do as good a job of tamping as a properly trained and motivated barista (who should also be well compensated). It can't pack with the same density and consistency because it tamps from the bottom up. The tamping auger starts at the bottom of the basket and moves upwards whilst compressing. It's an ingenious design.

So... it's just not as good - plain and simple. Why do I like it for the shop that I'm affiliated with right now? Very simple: we have three shops and approximately 15 part time barista's (20 - 30 hours per week each). Despite best efforts at training, there's only so much supervision that the owner or the one manager can provide. These are good employees - great attitudes, reliable and honest. But asprigin coffee industry professionals they ain't. There's not a one of 'em who has any real interest in the business long term - there almost all students trying to make ends meet.

The culture and economy of this town not to mention struggling to make a decent margin in tax burdened NY state means we don't have a large pool of talented candidates with a real interest in the business and if we did it would be tough to pay them enough for that dedication. The Swift allows us to get these kids (I say kids 'cause they're all under age 25) up to speed in relatviely short order (a few months) and making drinks for customers. It's not a perfect world but the Swift improves our consistency with staffing as it is and saves us money on coffee.

It's worth noting that the newbies all have to train on a Mazzer Super Jolly and learn to tamp the right way before they are allowed to use the Swift!
The sad part is that our shots are generally very good but never stellar - it's the price we pay. Just curious - have you seen any naked PF shots from a Swift tamp?

 

[NW JAVA]

Hmm, I guess I got it right when I guessed 24 seconds was about right. , and man I roast for flavor not extraction....

 

[topher]

To each their own...I pull mine around 28 seconds

 

[NW JAVA]

YEah, 18-28 is actually my guidence to my grrls....with 24 being the time to taste, and adjust if needed.

 

[Maximus]

I think that for each coffee you need personal extraction of course. But in Russia most of barista think yhat perfect extraction - 25 sec. (because italians say smt. like that). But my oppinion - 18-28 sec. It depends

 

[MeanJoeBean]

25-30 for double shots......20-25 for *gasp* single shots....I don't see why most people rag on single shots, if pulled right they are sweeter than doubles.

and trust me, I can pull a mean single....

-Joe

 

[BaristaTrainer]

In my opinion the problem with single shots is that the basket itself promotes "channeling". The water is directed through the center of the coffee thus overextracting the espresso. Also the amount of coffee you can fit in a single basket is often not enough, especially if you are using a lighter roast.

I would put a double basket in a single portafilter and then pull ristrettos ... you can always pull doubles and then chill the unused shot(s) for when making blended drinks. A good espresso should stil taste good (with many different nuances) when it is chilled.

my $.02 :wink:

BT

 

[topher]

the only thing is that espresso is to be served immediately after it is pulled...I personally wouldn't "chill" the unused shot....what kind of equipment are you using....that is sort of a blanket statement...that you can not pull a good single off any machine...depends on the design of your machine

 

[BaristaTrainer]

hi topher,

What I was suggesting is instead of dumping unused shots down the drain, an option may be to save them and use them for blended powder mix drinks or granita.

Even chilled shots can add good flavor and an extra kick instead of wasting them, in my opinion.

It is something I tried in the last place I managed and found it to be ok.

Not really saying it is good for everyone, sort of waste management.

BT

 

[cafemakers]

In my opinion the problem with single shots is that the basket itself promotes "channeling". The water is directed through the center of the coffee thus overextracting the espresso.

The portafilter baskets for all machines that we have seen thus far have the same method of dispersing water before reaching the spouts, but vary in depth to account for more or less coffee volume. How exactly does a single spout promote channeling?

Also the amount of coffee you can fit in a single basket is often not enough, especially if you are using a lighter roast.

How much coffee do you recommend using in a single shot?

 

[BaristaTrainer]

There is much less area in a single portafilter for the espresso to go through ... in a double basket you have a more even dispersion (not chanelled through the center).

weight varys more on what coffee you are using ... (light or dark, lighter roasts weighing more than darker). 14-18 grams (for a double) is a general rule of thumb, but can vary.

this has been my experience, and is only my opinion (and many other baristas I have worked with).

BT

 

[cafemakers]

We have not seen any significant evidence of more channeling with single baskets versus double or more. I suggest that improper tamping may be your problem, it may be more evident when less coffee is available to restrict the flow of water.

I agree with the 14-18g figure for doubles, but was a bit curious regarding your comment that "not enough" coffee could fit in a single. We generally use 7-9g of coffee in a single, for which there is ample available space in the basket.

 

[BaristaTrainer]

Interesting how single portafilters come with 6 or 7 gm baskets ... and how 7-9 gm is the standard that we both agree with?

Many of the best baristas will now use a triple basket for their double shot portafilters ... it makes more sense ...

Tamp is very important, your right ... but that is not my problem ... are you going to recommend that I get a swift next?

Does anyone else have input on this topic?

BT

 

[MeanJoeBean]

How does a triple basket make more sense in a double portafilter? To me that makes no sense at all......and if you find you are having to put a double basket in a single portafilter then YOU ARE doing something wrong.

In my experience as a Coffee Bartender, I have had no problems pulling single shots with the single basket and have seen no channeling.

Also, what is your basis for single portafilters coming with 6 or 7 gm baskets?

-Joe

P.S. Just because "some of the best baristas" are doing it doesn't make it right.

 

[BaristaTrainer]

it's my opinion, you are welcome to your own ... that is the beauty of this forum ...

Look at specs for single portafilters ... always 7gm.

I was a "coffee bartender" for over 8 years before I started experimenting with different baskets, etc.

Just trying to share a new concept with people ... not saying it the only way.