Saeco Incanto Sirius

[JerseyGuy]

Re: Brew to Cup Temp

The optimal brew temp I've read is around 200 F. Not that other super autos are that much better. What's your take on the cup temp being a whopping (IMHO) 18 F below par? :!:

From what I have read, it is not unusual for the "cup" temperature to be below the actual brewing temperature - as it travels it loses heat. Here is what I have seen elsewhere:

194F to 203F (90C - 95C) is regarded as ideal for the water hitting the coffee;
185F to 194F (85C- 90C) is regarded as ideal for the brewed coffee exiting the brew unit.

 

[Bob]

LOW - 168
MED -- 180, but it decreases several degrees as the cup is filled.
HIGH - 188, but it only remains here for a few seconds then backs off to about 182. Also when I ran another cup 5 minutes later, the maximum temperature was 182, but no further decrease in temperature. I have also seen this as low as 175 at other times. I talked to Saeco about this and they said the variation is "normal" and can vary.

JerseyGuy,
Was the 175 degree measured when the temp was set to high and measured in the same way? If so, it seems that there is a 13 degree variance in the temp over time. Do I understand correctly?

My old machine that I am replacing has a built in thermometer and shows a decrease in temp as the water flows and I can taste a difference in flavor/bitterness as the temp varies. Do you observe a similar experience?

Bob

 

[JerseyGuy]

LOW - 168
MED -- 180, but it decreases several degrees as the cup is filled.
HIGH - 188, but it only remains here for a few seconds then backs off to about 182. Also when I ran another cup 5 minutes later, the maximum temperature was 182, but no further decrease in temperature. I have also seen this as low as 175 at other times. I talked to Saeco about this and they said the variation is "normal" and can vary.

JerseyGuy,
Was the 175 degree measured when the temp was set to high and measured in the same way? If so, it seems that there is a 13 degree variance in the temp over time. Do I understand correctly?

My old machine that I am replacing has a built in thermometer and shows a decrease in temp as the water flows and I can taste a difference in flavor/bitterness as the temp varies. Do you observe a similar experience?

Bob

Yes the HIGH temperature seems to vary more than the Medium or Low. The 175 was measured today after the machine was idle for about an hour. I suspect the transport path cooled down as the machine was idle, thus cooling the water as it traveled through. I think the internal temperature probably remains the same but the cup temperature varies depending on how many shots are made in what time frame.

I think doing a shot of pre brewed with no coffee would heat up the path and establish a better cup temperature.

I'm still calibrating so I can't give you a good comment yet on the bitterness issue.

 

[Mikelev]

Incanto v. Royal, etc.

OK, for those Saeco loyal fans (it was my first and still is my favorite)...I think Saeco does a great job with it's superautomatic machines. My only disappointment with their latest and best is the permanent Panarello device. But hey, this thing may be great for some people who haven't mastered the art of "microfroth" with a wand. Novices love the panarello device because it does tend to make the frothing easy...but at a price! You're getting pretend froth!!! When you get the real thing...the thick, velvety, shaving cream type of microfroth, it's very hard to get used to dry fluffy panarello froth!

My next machine will probably be the Royal Pro...it has everything I want and it's CHEAPER than the Incanto!

For all you real coffee lovers...try getting a roaster and roast your own espresso beans! Now we're talking coffee!!!!!!

Mike

 

[Bob]

Yes the HIGH temperature seems to vary more than the Medium or Low. The 175 was measured today after the machine was idle for about an hour. I suspect the transport path cooled down as the machine was idle, thus cooling the water as it traveled through. I think the internal temperature probably remains the same but the cup temperature varies depending on how many shots are made in what time frame.

I think doing a shot of pre brewed with no coffee would heat up the path and establish a better cup temperature.

That is a very thoughtful explanation and makes sense to me. Perhaps next time you measure the 175 degrees at rest you can try a blank shot and see if the cup temp rises.

Frankly, the discussion on this thread was the final element in causing me to decide to purchase the Sirius and the temp consistency issue has me uneasy.

Bob

 

[Bob]

As I think more about the temperature issue I recall reading advice from some superautomatic users who advise starting a brewing session by drawing a blank shot to warm up the brew group and this all seems to now make sense. What do you think?

Bob

 

[JerseyGuy]

the temp consistency issue has me uneasy.

As I think more about the temperature issue I recall reading advice from some superautomatic users who advise starting a brewing session by drawing a blank shot to warm up the brew group and this all seems to now make sense. What do you think?

Bob

I definately agree with the blank shot to start a session.

I'm not familiar with the other machines so can't comment on if there is a similar temperature variation.

I guess the real test is how good is the brew. I am still calibrating so I can't really make a recommendation. I will say that the taste seems consistent from shot to shot, so the temperature variation is not yet an issue.

Perhaps next time you measure the 175 degrees at rest you can try a blank shot and see if the cup temp rises.

When I measured 175 it was a blank shot. I'll try some more temperature experiments next week. This weekend I'll be trying the Ambrosia and calibrating the machine to it.

 

[Bob]

When I measured 175 it was a blank shot. I'll try some more temperature experiments next week.

It seems to me that the temperature should be measured during the second blank shot. In my mind I see the entire brew group and the brew path sitting idle and gradually becoming relatively cool over time. When the first shot moves through the machine there is a heat loss for the liquid as the path is warmed up. The next shot is able to be brewed and delivered at a higher temperature because it is created and transported through a hot system. This could be important if the temperature is pivotal to quality.

As I think more about it, I have sometimes noticed an espresso bar flushing hot water through a brew group before pulling a shot on a machine that was previously idle. At the time I thought it was just for cleaning but perhaps the operator was heating the path.

Just an idea.

Bob

 

[JerseyGuy]

It seems to me that the temperature should be measured during the second blank shot.

Here are three tests I did this afternoon.

TEST 1 - COFFEE:
- SBS unit installed to represent real life use of the unit.
- Unit turned on 30 minutes before test.
- 5 oz blank and cups (SBS full counterclockwise, TEMP set to high)

Blank shot- -- 180
First cup ------ 170 (about 1 minute after the blank)
Second cup --- 175 (about 5 minutes after the first registered)


TEST 2 - COFFEE 10 MINUTES LATER:
- Environment same as above

Blank shot -- 188
First cup ----- 180 (about 1 minute after the blank)
Second cup -- 180 dropped off to 170 during pull (about 1 minutes after the first registered)


TEST 3 - ESPRESSO:
- SBS unit on installed.
- 1.5 oz blank and shots (SBS set full clockwise, TEMP set to high)
- 10 minute wait after test 2

Blank shot --- 175
First shot ----- 185 (about 1 minute after the blank)
Second shot -- 185 (about 1 minute later)

So this just meets the "criteria" I have seen, and the thermometer may not be the most accurate.

• 185F to 194F (85C- 90C) is regarded as ideal for the brewed coffee exiting the brew unit.

There are some considerations when making multiple big cups.

• - How long to allow the unit to "reheat" between cups
  - Is the 5 oz blank shot a good idea or should a smaller 1.5 shot be used.

NOTE: I may be getting more accurate measurements as I found the frothing thermometer I used in previous measurements had a very low reaction time to temperature changes. My wife's meat thermometer has a much faster reaction time and I will be using that from now on.

 

[JerseyGuy]

Brew Group Maintenance Kit

There are no instructions on brew group maintenance in the manual that comes with the Incanto but I received a reply from Saeco that included instructions. Basically all you have to do is look at the brew group and see where the lubricant is and clean and lubricate that about once a month.

There are currently no Incanto Sirius Brew Group Maintenance kits (lubricant and O-ring) available from Saeco US. They are pursuing getting them. The O-ring needs replacing in about a year (depending on use) so there is time.

But you will need to get lubricant. They sent me a kit, but it was the wrong one, so I did get a tube that I am using. That should last awhile.

 

[Bob]

Here are three tests I did this afternoon.

Your tests seem to be very thoughtfully performed!

The 1.5 oz espresso test is reassuring; the initial temp and recovery are both good.

The 5 oz cups leave room for concern as the temps and recovery seem slightly low. As you point out, the results may be limited by the accuracy of the thermometer. I would be using larger cups during the day to make cafe creama instead of brewed coffee, so I would hope for good quality in this larger size as well.

I will be interested in your taste evaluation with beans that are more to your taste.

Bob

 

[JerseyGuy]

Here are three tests I did this afternoon.

The 5 oz cups leave room for concern as the temps and recovery seem slightly low. As you point out, the results may be limited by the accuracy of the thermometer. I would be using larger cups during the day to make cafe creama instead of brewed coffee, so I would hope for good quality in this larger size as well.

I will be interested in your taste evaluation with beans that are more to your taste.

Using Ambrosia, the 2 coffees this morning (8 oz each) were very good. My wife really liked it. So this is working for us.

I tried my first espresso with this bean this afternoon and it was very good. Maybe a little light, but I have some room to play with the settings.

 

[Bob]

Using Ambrosia, the 2 coffees this morning (8 oz each) were very good. My wife really liked it. So this is working for us.

I tried my first espresso with this bean this afternoon and it was very good. Maybe a little light, but I have some room to play with the settings.

I am glad to hear that you are enjoying the coffee from your new machine.

It seems that there is a dramatic difference in the espresso as a result of changing beans. I have never heard of Ambrosia; who is the supplier or roaster?

Bob

 

[JerseyGuy]

I am glad to hear that you are enjoying the coffee from your new machine.

It seems that there is a dramatic difference in the espresso as a result of changing beans. I have never heard of Ambrosia; who is the supplier or roaster?

Bob

Cafe Fresco. Check out the discussion at:

http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/blends/120740

 

[Bob]

I tried my first espresso with this bean this afternoon and it was very good. Maybe a little light, but I have some room to play with the settings.

If you have time, an update would be appreciated. I am interested in your opinion of the flavor and quality of the coffee as you have more experience with the machine and have the opportunity to dial it in. Personally, I do not like bitter espresso and am hoping that with the right coffee and adjustments the Sirius can deliver a smooth yet flavorfull cup.

Bob