Why Peet's make better espresso than I?

[vasyoktrubachov]

I am trying to achieve the best result with my equipment (Mazzer + Silvano). I buy my coffee at Peet's, the same Espresso Forte, which they use for their espresso. I have a good result, and I make a very good espresso. But when they give me a complimentary single espresso with my beans, I realize how far I am behind. It is almost like my drink is 5 years cognac, and Peet's is 12 years. I have similar taste, but their coffee is more smooth and refined. What else can I tweak?! Or maybe nothing? It is not the beans, unlikely it is the grinder. So it is either the espresso machine or the barista. Any ideas?

One clue is that my crema looks different from Peets. Mine is more uniformed (depending on the temperature, it can be lighter or darker), theirs has tiny spots, sort of like I saw on YouTube how the crema should look like.

 

[peterjschmidt]

Are you positive you both have the same beans? I mean, in terms of freshness? Have yours been sitting in a bag on a shelf, while perhaps they fresh beans in the cafe?

Of course, there would be a difference in equipment; you don't mention which Mazzer you have, but most likely it isn't what they're using. Nor would the Silvano equal their commercial machine. Combine that with (hopefully) a barista that has good skill, and there's your answer. Obviously, you have some very nice equipment, and it's capable of great espresso...

If you know them well enough, ask this same question to them. See what they say, and if they'll let you behind the counter to watch them prepare/pull some shots. Sounds like fun.

 

[vasyoktrubachov]

I have Rocket Mazzer Mini. At Peet's they told me the have shipment every Wednesday, and I buy my beans on Friday. It is only a couple days old. And you can tell it is as fresh as it gets. Interestingly, they don't use fully automatic machines, as Starbucks does. So, you are right, barista skills do matter. Their espresso is truly amazing. They serve it in a ceramic cup. But once, by error, they gave it to me in a paper cup - very different experience.

I suspect it all boils down to the machine, because everything else I tweaked 100 times around. Oh, one more interesting observation. When they draw their espresso, it takes them noticeably longer than standard (according to our religion) 25 sec. But it is the barista, who starts and stops the machine.

 

[shadow745]

That isn't to say your machine isn't capable once you find the sweet spot for that particular coffee. Many think there's no way possible to produce great espresso consistently with "home" equipment, but I know it's definitely possible. If consistent brew temperature/pressure is achieved it makes no difference what the espresso is extracted out of. Those that can't agree simply don't have the skill or knowledge to pull it off. I've owned/used several quality commercial machines (from the almighty Nuova Simonelli to the polished turd La Marzoccos that the LM fanboys know and love for whatever reasons) and have done quite well with home equipment compared to commercial caliber machines. The only things commercial level equipment sorta guarantees you is longevity and high volume.

Don't buy into the time/volume B.S. that coffee nerds preach as it's all personal preference. I'm quite pleased with extracting 1-1.25 oz through 16-17 grams in 40-45 seconds for the coffee I like to use, which is all that matters. I take pride in going against the grain and never with it as that leads to boredom.

 

[peterjschmidt]

Don't buy into the time/volume B.S. that coffee nerds preach as it's all personal preference. I'm quite pleased with extracting 1-1.25 oz through 16-17 grams in 40-45 seconds for the coffee I like to use, which is all that matters. I take pride in going against the grain and never with it as that leads to boredom.

That's how espresso happens here, a 16g ristretto in 40-45sec. Under 30sec., and I feel like I did something wrong.

 

[vasyoktrubachov]

That isn't to say your machine isn't capable once you find the sweet spot for that particular coffee. Many think there's no way possible to produce great espresso consistently with "home" equipment, but I know it's definitely possible. If consistent brew temperature/pressure is achieved it makes no difference what the espresso is extracted out of. Those that can't agree simply don't have the skill or knowledge to pull it off. I've owned/used several quality commercial machines (from the almighty Nuova Simonelli to the polished turd La Marzoccos that the LM fanboys know and love for whatever reasons) and have done quite well with home equipment compared to commercial caliber machines. The only things commercial level equipment sorta guarantees you is longevity and high volume.

Don't buy into the time/volume B.S. that coffee nerds preach as it's all personal preference. I'm quite pleased with extracting 1-1.25 oz through 16-17 grams in 40-45 seconds for the coffee I like to use, which is all that matters. I take pride in going against the grain and never with it as that leads to boredom.

Yes, I noticed each new coffee requires a lot of tuning all over, starting with the grinder... So by fixing my beans, I took one variable out of equation. Now, how about pressure? I never tried to play with this. Use whatever was set up originally on my Silvano. Should I try? As far as for the timing, you learn your dogma, and stick to it. I just could not help myself but turn it off after 25-30 sec, after reading countless posts. But one single thing, improving my espresso was to make my grind more fine, and draw my shot for 45 sec. Somehow I just could not believe my eyes (rather my taste buds)

 

[vasyoktrubachov]

That's how espresso happens here, a 16g ristretto in 40-45sec. Under 30sec., and I feel like I did something wrong.

Thank you. This confirms my observation that 25 sec - not necessarily the sacred cow. At work we have a coffee cart. They have an espresso machine. It is fully automatic and expensive looking machine, which gives you a piece of crap, but still occasionally I have to use it just to get properly caffeinated. They draw one shot in 15 sec. Besides, since their espresso is rather sourer, I suspect they set the machine to give as many shots per min as possible, plus save on temperature. Out of interest, I checked the beans and found they use very good Italian coffee

 

[peterjschmidt]

I don't think you mentioned where you're located (if it was my forum, I'd make it so a member's location shows along with their join date and post count), but unless you're in Italy, even if it was very good Italian coffee, it's stale by the time you're using it.

 

[vasyoktrubachov]

I don't think you mentioned where you're located (if it was my forum, I'd make it so a member's location shows along with their join date and post count), but unless you're in Italy, even if it was very good Italian coffee, it's stale by the time you're using it.

No, I am not in Italy. I am in Los Angeles. You may be right about good Italian coffee being stale, but 15 sec extraction time certainly does not help it...

 

[slurp]

15 second shot is way to fast for any bean or grind. I run a 30 second shot including 5 second pre infusion.

 

[vasyoktrubachov]

I have two additional considerations why Peet's (or any other commercial equipment) can achieve better results, if somebody is interested to think about it or discuss.

1. Better consistency may be coming from the fact that the temperature inside the shop is more stable. If they set their climate control to 71F, arguably it stays like this during business hours. I noticed multiple times that depending on the temperature in my room (and it can vary a lot, especially during summer months), for example early in the morning vs. late in the afternoon, my grinder produces a notably different amount of ground. As well as my machine takes different amount of time to warm.

2 Today I tempered my grind a bit too hard, and while making two single espressos, at first I had coffee coming out only from the right side. Then in about 10 sec it started to come from the left side. After some 40-45 sec I had two cups of espresso, the right one had a little more in it. But the look and taste was significantly different! The right one was more brown, and tasted more bitter than the left one. Which is an indicator that the temperature drops significantly during extraction. Therefore, when I make a cup of double espresso, de facto, I combine smaller portions, which extracted at different temperatures. I will not be surprised if a expensive commercial machine has much more stable water temperature during single extraction.

 

[peterjschmidt]

1) Humidity will affect the grinding, probably more than the temperature. Once a home machine is warmed up, fluctuations in ambient temperature shouldn't matter.

2) You might consider getting a bottomless portafilter as a learning tool, as it will reveal any shot prep weaknesses.

 

[shadow745]

I have two additional considerations why Peet's (or any other commercial equipment) can achieve better results, if somebody is interested to think about it or discuss.

1. Better consistency may be coming from the fact that the temperature inside the shop is more stable. If they set their climate control to 71F, arguably it stays like this during business hours. I noticed multiple times that depending on the temperature in my room (and it can vary a lot, especially during summer months), for example early in the morning vs. late in the afternoon, my grinder produces a notably different amount of ground. As well as my machine takes different amount of time to warm.

2 Today I tempered my grind a bit too hard, and while making two single espressos, at first I had coffee coming out only from the right side. Then in about 10 sec it started to come from the left side. After some 40-45 sec I had two cups of espresso, the right one had a little more in it. But the look and taste was significantly different! The right one was more brown, and tasted more bitter than the left one. Which is an indicator that the temperature drops significantly during extraction. Therefore, when I make a cup of double espresso, de facto, I combine smaller portions, which extracted at different temperatures. I will not be surprised if a expensive commercial machine has much more stable water temperature during single extraction.

I have no idea why you seem to think anything less than commercial equipment will hold you back. Commercial equipment is good for two things... longevity and volume in a commercial setting. As I've pointed out before I've owned/used some really good equipment and the absolute best shot I've ever had came from the 37+ year old Cremina manual lever I owned for awhile. NO commercial/home machines I have used could touch what it was capable of. Control brew temperature, brew pressure and flow rate and you will achieve great espresso consistently.

Temperature and humidity definitely wreak havoc on consistency. For those that think mastering espresso at home or in a shop can be tough, try a mobile setting.

 

[vasyoktrubachov]

I have no idea why you seem to think anything less than commercial equipment will hold you back. Commercial equipment is good for two things... longevity and volume in a commercial setting. As I've pointed out before I've owned/used some really good equipment and the absolute best shot I've ever had came from the 37+ year old Cremina manual lever I owned for awhile. NO commercial/home machines I have used could touch what it was capable of. Control brew temperature, brew pressure and flow rate and you will achieve great espresso consistently.

Temperature and humidity definitely wreak havoc on consistency. For those that think mastering espresso at home or in a shop can be tough, try a mobile setting.

The goal of my initial post was to find out if there is anything more that I can do to boost the quality my home espresso. I do not want to enter the religious debate "home" vs "commercial" equipment. Rater I want to find tips to improve the quality of what I can do with equipment I have (Mazzer + Silvano). For example, in the result of this thread, I started to grind my coffee more fine - just enough to pull 2 single espressos in 45 sec, and tis made a difference

You say 'control brew temperature', but what do you mean by that? I have my machine's PID set for 203F. After 5 min of warming I already see this temperature on the display. But if I draw my shot at this moment, it is terribly underextracted with sour test and very light crema. However, if I leave my machine to warm for more than 30 min, with the same 203F on my PID screen, I will get oveextracted shot with bitter taste and dark crema.

I spent enough beans and time to know that I am pulling the best shot I can make. As I start changing parameters, I see that I go one way or another, and I know that I found a “sweet spot” as people say here. And I have to say I do like my espresso very much. It is clearly one of the best on a block. However, each time I go to Peet’s to get myself fresh beans, and try their single shot, which comes complimentary, I feel clear difference. I thought I described it in my initial post: I have pretty much the same flavor, but the difference in my espresso and Peet’s is like a difference of 5 year old cognac and 12 year old cognac.

So if you can, please explain where this difference is coming from. But please don’t tell me it is my barista skills vs. the guy at Peets.

 

[shadow745]

My point exactly with the PID dependency... Let your machine warm up 30 mins minimum as that allows all the components to be super heated. Try flushing a few ounces out of the group, then lock the portafilter/basket in and extract regardless of what temperature is on the display. A PID simply helps keep the boiler water temperature in the programmed range, no more/no less.

When I say "control brew temperature" that is just what I mean. If you control brew temperature/pressure/flow rate you can extract good espresso consistently from pretty much any machine.

For example, I have been using my KitchenAid Pro Line machine for years now. It's nothing more than a double boiler Gaggia Classic in a KA housing. I let it warm up 30 minutes, then flush a few ounces out of the group, the thermostat kicks ON... takes about 12 seconds to kick OFF, then I let it stabilize for 20 seconds, lock the portafilter in and extract. That is the sweet spot that I've found to work great with my favorite coffee and it's spot on pretty much every time. Over the years I've owned or used a Nuova Simonelli Aurelia, La Marzocco Linea, La Marzocco FB80, Olympia Cremina, Isomac Relax and the KA Pro Line. Grinder wise it's been a Baratza Vario, Capresso Infinity, Nuova Simonelli MDX, Nuova Simonelli Grinta, Mazzer Super Jolly, KitchenAid Pro Line with 58mm Mazzer Mini burrs and a 50+ year old KyM conical burr hand mill. At home and commercially I've extracted tens of thousands of double shots in a 5-6 year period. Point I'm trying to make is my simple home equipment gives me espresso that is easily 95% as tasty/consistently as the best extractions I've achieved with all other equipment I've had the pleasure of working with.

Of course skill and fresh coffee are the most important factors IMBHO. So many people go on and on about the grinder, etc., but without a decent skill set, understanding of what variables contribute to espresso extraction and fresh coffee you're missing out.