USED rancilio silvila v3 with mini jolly vs NEW gaggia classic with virtuoso preciso

[hypedup]

Hello,

Finally decided to purchase en espresso machine. Originally I was going for NEW rancilio v3 with "some" kind of grinder but it was just too much(it was around 1000-1200). So I decided to go with new gaggia classic with preciso for $648 but then I saw a posting for about 2.5year old rancilio v3 with mazzer mini(black with timer?) for $700. He said mostly used on weekends only and pretty good condition.

I have used an espresso machine before but not an expert(plus it's been awhile too). I will be mostly making espresso and latte.

Now I can't decide! Help me! Thank you.

 

[shadow745]

That should probably be a Mazzer Mini OR Mazzer Super Jolly. The Mini is commercial build quality and 58mm burrs. Super Jolly is basically a larger version of it, having 64mm (I think) burrs. La Pavoni does offer a Jolly grinder as well. Of those two choices, even though I'm a Gaggia fan, I would definitely go for the used Silvia/grinder. Both espresso machines have their pros and cons and would be a lateral move, not really a better move. I probably wouldn't waste time or money on a Preciso.

 

[hypedup]

Yes, sorry about that it's mazzer mini black with timer on the side? Any specific reason why you go with the used one? I guess I am little hesitated to buy used one because I am not an expert with these machines and if anything breaks or etc.

Thanks for the reply

 

[shadow745]

On the grinder side you really can't wear out a commercial grade grinder like the Mini or Super Jolly. They are built to handle hundreds of pounds of coffee before the burrs start to wear out. Even though it will cost maybe $40-50 for a new set and it's like new.

The pros of the Gaggia are simplicity, small boiler that heats/stabilizes quickly and easy/affordable to repair down the road. If a Gaggia boiler runs dry/too hot there is a thermal fuse that is sacrificed to save the boiler/heating elements as they are embedded in the exterior of the boiler half. The cons would be the adequate steam performance and aluminum boiler half that requires decent water balance (hardness, alkalinity, etc).

The pros of the Silvia are build quality, good boiler size (around 12 oz.) that gives great steaming, but longer to recover. The main con is that the boiler and group are slightly offset and this can lead to temperature fluctuations, but can be resolved by a bit of temp surfing to find the sweet spot, but that is the case with most machines regardless.

I wouldn't worry too much about buying used as their loss can be your gain. If the original owner started out with an investment such as the Silvia and Mini surely they took decent pride in it, usually leading to proper care. Ask for several pics of the machine (inside if possible) and go from there.

 

[Mhippo]

Having been the owner of a Gaggia evolution I have to agree that a Silvia, even if used, is preferable. There's a reason that the new Gaggia costs less than the used Silvia, and it's the fact that they're a lower quality line. The Silvia has a larger boiler size (10 oz) than the Gaggia (3.5 oz). The Silvia has a real steam wand, whereas the Gaggia comes with a Panarello (sp?) frother, which makes getting a good foam harder (although it makes getting any foam easier for beginners). Those are the two main advantages I can think of, I'm sure there are more...

 

[hypedup]

Thanks Shadow745, good to know about the grinder. I guess there was a reason why everyone said "mazzer" for grinder "if you can afford it"
Just one more question, obvioulsy this would depend on the product itselft but do you think this is a good price for it? $700

Thanks again!

 

[shadow745]

Larger boiler size in the Silvia is good for more steam, but can be it's weakness maintaining temp. stability throughout the extraction unless it's timed perfectly. Also will take longer to recover. Good thing with the Silvia is the boiler is brass.

Gaggia boiler may be small, but it recovers quite fast, so it actually has as good or better temp. stability than machines having much larger boilers/less wattage on the heating element. Not sure how other Gaggia machines are, but the Panarello tip is easily removed from my KitchenAid Pro Line wand as I've never used it.

The reason the Silvia cost more is because Rancilio has their heads up their asses and think their equipment is superior. Most think the issue with the Silvia is the price has increased quite a bit in the last 8-10 years with little to no enhancement to justify the cost. The only real change I can agree on with the Silvia over the years is the addition of the adjustable OPV. Other than that I think it's overpriced when new compared to other offerings. Same with their grinders. There's a reason you will find tons of used Rocky grinders on the market.

 

[hypedup]

Having been the owner of a Gaggia evolution I have to agree that a Silvia, even if used, is preferable. There's a reason that the new Gaggia costs less than the used Silvia, and it's the fact that they're a lower quality line. The Silvia has a larger boiler size (10 oz) than the Gaggia (3.5 oz). The Silvia has a real steam wand, whereas the Gaggia comes with a Panarello (sp?) frother, which makes getting a good foam harder (although it makes getting any foam easier for beginners). Those are the two main advantages I can think of, I'm sure there are more...

Thanks Mhippo! I am leaning towards the silvia as well

 

[shadow745]

Thanks Shadow745, good to know about the grinder. I guess there was a reason why everyone said "mazzer" for grinder "if you can afford it"
Just one more question, obvioulsy this would depend on the product itselft but do you think this is a good price for it? $700

Thanks again!

Well Mazzers are good grinders, but there are other brands equally as good and cheaper in some cases. I'm guessing a new Silvia and Mini would be $1100+, so a combo in good condition for $700 would be quite a good find.

The only thing I don't like about Mazzer (and other brands as well) grinders is the burr adjustment mechanism, which is a collar that screws up/down to adjust the top burr. I say this after having a Nuova Simonelli MDX grinder, which is easily on par with the Super Jolly and to adjust the burr there is a spring loaded micro adjustment knob that actually raises the motor/bottom burr for very precise adjustment, which never changed even after cleaning. With other grinders that utilize the collar setup you will have to find your spot or even zero the burrs and work your way back to the sweet spot after disassembly/cleaning.

 

[hypedup]

Well Mazzers are good grinders, but there are other brands equally as good and cheaper in some cases. I'm guessing a new Silvia and Mini would be $1100+, so a combo in good condition for $700 would be quite a good find.

The only thing I don't like about Mazzer (and other brands as well) grinders is the burr adjustment mechanism, which is a collar that screws up/down to adjust the top burr. I say this after having a Nuova Simonelli MDX grinder, which is easily on par with the Super Jolly and to adjust the burr there is a spring loaded micro adjustment knob that actually raises the motor/bottom burr for very precise adjustment, which never changed even after cleaning. With other grinders that utilize the collar setup you will have to find your spot or even zero the burrs and work your way back to the sweet spot after disassembly/cleaning.

Wow! you are an expert! impressed and that's an expansive grinder. I am definitely leaning towards the rancilio just because that what I wanted originally and what you guys said.
I am just making sure this seller will accept return, in case if there is anything wrong with the machine it self.

Thanks for you help!

 

[shadow745]

Wow! you are an expert! impressed and that's an expansive grinder. I am definitely leaning towards the rancilio just because that what I wanted originally and what you guys said.
I am just making sure this seller will accept return, in case if there is anything wrong with the machine it self.

Thanks for you help!

The term expert and professional are used far too often, lmao. Just have a fair amount of experience with different machines, grinders, etc. Regarding espresso machines, I have a KitchenAid Pro Line, which is nothing more than a double boiler Gaggia Classic in a KA housing. I will honestly say that it is 95% on par (extraction wise) with any machine that I've had the pleasure of owning/using. Meaning the best double shots I get from it are nearly as good as the very best I've achieved on all other machines. This comes after tens of thousands of double shots from different machines, grinders, coffees, etc. **Includes a Nuova Simonelli Aurelia, an Olympia Cremina lever, an Isomac Relax and a few La Marzocco polished turds as I like to call them. Never used a Silvia and probably never will and I'm sure it's quite capable, but the Gaggia line should never be overlooked as they are very capable as well. To each his own...

Regarding price I assume the current Silvia is $600~ and a new Mazzer Mini is probably that much as well.

Coffee nerds always tout the grinder as being the most important part of the equation, but IMBHO that isn't the case. You absolutely need fresh coffee and skill to go with a good grinder and machine. The best grinder made isn't gonna be worth a damn if you don't know how to dial it in with fresh coffee, consistent brew temperature/pressure, etc.

 

[Mhippo]

Gaggia boiler may be small, but it recovers quite fast, so it actually has as good or better temp. stability than machines having much larger boilers/less wattage on the heating element.

The two problems that the Evo shares with the classic are the boiler and steam wand. The boiler has a small capacity, making temp stability suffer (I had very different temps, at times almost down to ambient temperature depending on circumstances)

Not sure how other Gaggia machines are, but the Panarello tip is easily removed from my KitchenAid Pro Line wand as I've never used it.

The Panarello tip on the Classic and Evo is fitted onto a very short nub of a steam wand. If you want to remove it you really need to install a new wand (the usual one used is actually the old, non no-burn, Silvia steam wand)

The reason the Silvia cost more is because Rancilio has their heads up their asses and think their equipment is superior. Most think the issue with the Silvia is the price has increased quite a bit in the last 8-10 years with little to no enhancement to justify the cost.

Which is why when I replaced my Evo I went with the Ascaso Steel Uno. However, given the two choices OP has, the Silvia is by far the better one.

I have a KitchenAid Pro Line, which is nothing more than a double boiler Gaggia Classic in a KA housing.

Double boiler makes a very big difference both in temp stability and in steam capacity. Not sure what boiler capacity you have, as I couldn't find them, but even if you just have the same capacity as the Classic it's still a huge difference. Seems to be more like the Baby Twin than the Classic, though that might actually be a boiler+thermoblock arrangement...

 

[shadow745]

No idea why you experienced such boiler temp fluctuations. I've measured water temp at the group at various stages between the elements kicking ON/OFF and have never had water temps lower than 193 degrees.

The KA Pro Line has two standard Gaggia 3.5 oz. boilers and in this case the performance is the same as a Classic. The only exception is there is no waiting to extract or steam as is the case with Single Boiler Double Use machines. The double boiler "advantage" makes no difference in this application. Same thermostats for extracting/steaming as any other Gaggia.

 

[Mhippo]

One possible difference is the steam boiler having an auto refill, which can increase steam volume, also it might be an issue of the different heating elements (The classic, I understand has an external element, the Evo is internal, the Kitchenaid I don't know...)

 

[shadow745]

The Evolution must be the lame attempt Philips-Saeco made to offer a stainless boiler and internal element. The KA Pro Line uses the traditional 3.5 oz. aluminum/brass hybrid boiler with external elements.

No auto-fill on the steam boiler, but that would have been a nice touch. Once steam runs a bit low I have to pulse the hot water button, which engages the pump and a 2-way solenoid to refill the boiler.

The only downside of having a double boiler Pro Line is the steam boiler runs rather hot compared to the brew boiler, which degrades the O-rings faster. Even the orange high-temp silicone O-rings give out much in time. Never had a single issue with the brew side.