Urgent roaster help please

[Brewsbroscafe]

Brewsbro - It's extremely hard to be profitable with a 2lb roaster. If your green cost $3.50 lb = roughly $4.00 with shrinkage. Labor on the low end w/ benefits is $15/hr (even if your doing it yourself you can't roast and serve customers at the same time), assuming you can roast 3 batches per hour your labor cost is $2.50 lb. So its roughly $6 a lb without energy (.25$/lb), packaging (if selling retail), rent for the square footage for your roasting equipment/green/supplies. Don't forget to add in the cost of the roaster... say $4K for the Mill Creek two pounder.




I was in the same boat as you... but when I took a serious look at the numbers it didn't make sense until you get into something 5K and above.

Thank you for the non-judgmental advice and I'm being serious, I do appreciate it. We actually did the numbers and found a way for it to be profitable, as I stated earlier, 4 years of planning gives one an advantage. This first location is no gold mine, its no high rise, or skyscraper, its not going to make us rich, but it does lead to brighter things as I've discussed. With the workload and the amount of possible patrons were determined our strategy can work...it has too, we are putting up every asset we own and then some, to see it through.

 

[Brewsbroscafe]

You might want to contact Len. He is a member here. Electric roasters.
Coffee Roaster - Coffee Roasters Club | Hand Made In The U.S.A. Coffee Roasters

Thank you for advice I will do just that.

 

[Redswing]

I can't help but jump back in, mostly in response to John P's post. John, you knew it would stimulate thought, and it did. I've frequently wanted to respond to your certainty, so here goes.

I've been to John's shop in Salt Lake City. And it's impressive. The man obviously knows what he's doing. But here's the thing, he's trying to attract and educate a specific clientele. He calls it "exclusivity", I believe. BUT, it's OK to make things accessible. Because let's face it...most people drink coffee for the social aspect or for the caffeine. The average New York City fireman isn't going to taste Brewsbros coffee and say; "Hmmm, I don't know about the viscosity here. Not quite balanced in the way it interacts with the 4 flavor zones of my tongue. And the aftertaste is a little sour. I really think this guy needs to get a better roaster." O contrare. If you buy quality green beans and you brew them only when they are freshly roasted with solid preperation technique, you're going way above what the average person expects or experiences typically. So if you need to be crazy intense about it and tell people off for not being as serious about the process as you, that's fine. Your ideas have a place and should be allowed. They will inspire the direction of many. (mine, as a matter of fact!) Some people are bent that way. But it's not for everybody, nor should it be.

John, I think your ideas are great. I loved my experience in your shop, and I'll be back. But I hope people realize that it's possible to make great coffee and make customers really happy with their experience without following your rules. I had a friend in college who blew my mind with coffee he roasted in a pop corn popper, ground in a chopper grinder, and brewed in a plug in drip machine. We NEED the whole spectrum, because people are everywhere on it.

 

[topher]

I was not trying to be negative in my post. I also believe that BrewsBroCafe took some of the comments as an attack. I think there were many good points made. I have a couple other quick questions..
How big is the office you are going to use for storage?
How many different coffees are you going to carry at a time?
Is it legal to exhaust directly out your window?

I understand that you can not have a small roaster due to space constraints...I am all about making things work but sometimes it just will not. I have a 500 sq ft roastery. In it I have a 60 kilo, afterburner, 2 MPE Grinders, weigh and fill, band sealer and 70 bags of coffee. It sucks. My life has been hell due to the size of my place, but its what we could afford when we started. After 4 years I am finally moving to a warehouse. If you just want to get by until you can afford a bigger roaster..will it be good enough to get you there? Yes the average person that has an average palate drinks coffee...are they willing to pay a premium for mediocre coffee? Have you ever roasted on an electric roaster? I have and personally didn't like it. I do wish you the best and hope that it works out. Keep it posted.

 

[John P]

Brewsbros,

I am aware that I did not answer your question. I was making note that slurp --despite you running the numbers -- actually had sound and solid advice. There are many prominent roasters and roaster-retailers, myself included, that started with someone outside doing their roasting. Why? It takes a lot of expertise to be a good, commercial roaster. Roasting at home, or for a small crowd is a far cry from roasting even for a kiosk style shop like you have described.

Starting AND running a business is difficult, so alleviating yourself of some of that might be best in the beginning year. And if you are using better coffee, you can charge more, so the margins will work. Once you have that price established, and continue to perfect your craft on possibly some better equipment, you will be able to nudge the prices up a bit as well after that initial year or so.

The Sonofresco is a nice starter roaster, and I know a few places that use a bank of them for their business and do pretty well... But when it comes down to it, they are not great roasters. They are a $2-$3K roaster that roasts as such. Yes, YOUR skill has a lot to do with it, but your skill can't exceed the capabilities of the machine, which are limited.

So you can be upset that we chose not to answer your question, or be happy that someone cared enough to present a viable, and proven alternative that will give you a greater chance of early success.

Either way, best of luck. I hope you succeed.

 

[John P]

Redswing,

Thanks for your comments and kind words.

If you have seen "Jiro Dreams of Sushi," that's me in a nutshell. If you understand the concept of "shokunin" which is much more than what the words "craftsman" or "artisan" entail, then you will greater understand my passion and obsession.

“The Japanese word shokunin is defined by both Japanese and Japanese-English dictionaries as ‘craftsman’ or ‘artisan,’ but such a literal description does not fully express the deeper meaning. The Japanese apprentice is taught that shokunin means not only having technical skills, but also implies an attitude and social consciousness. … The shokunin has a social obligation to work his/her best for the general welfare of the people. This obligation is both spiritual and material, in that no matter what it is, the shokunin’s responsibility is to fulfill the requirement.” – Tasio Odate

It's because of what we do that we have the widest ranging customer base of any shop in our city. We appeal to people who love exceptional drinks. We don't market based on age, or style, or hip atmosphere, and therefore we get daily customers from 17 to 76 from all walks of life. It's about the coffee.

 

[smksignals]

If you have seen "Jiro Dreams of Sushi," that's me in a nutshell. If you understand the concept of "shokunin" which is much more than what the words "craftsman" or "artisan" entail, then you will greater understand my passion and obsession.

It's because of what we do that we have the widest ranging customer base of any shop in our city. We appeal to people who love exceptional drinks. We don't market based on age, or style, or hip atmosphere, and therefore we get daily customers from 17 to 76 from all walks of life. It's about the coffee.

Ok, now I gotta plan a roadie to SLC and visit John P's shop.

 

[slurp]

Oh, and as this is my post "777" it's clear that it's the lucky advice of the day!
Good times. 8)

That is awesome time for a trip to Vegas!

 

[Brewsbroscafe]

I can't help but jump back in, mostly in response to John P's post. John, you knew it would stimulate thought, and it did. I've frequently wanted to respond to your certainty, so here goes.

I've been to John's shop in Salt Lake City. And it's impressive. The man obviously knows what he's doing. But here's the thing, he's trying to attract and educate a specific clientele. He calls it "exclusivity", I believe. BUT, it's OK to make things accessible. Because let's face it...most people drink coffee for the social aspect or for the caffeine. The average New York City fireman isn't going to taste Brewsbros coffee and say; "Hmmm, I don't know about the viscosity here. Not quite balanced in the way it interacts with the 4 flavor zones of my tongue. And the aftertaste is a little sour. I really think this guy needs to get a better roaster." O contrare. If you buy quality green beans and you brew them only when they are freshly roasted with solid preperation technique, you're going way above what the average person expects or experiences typically. So if you need to be crazy intense about it and tell people off for not being as serious about the process as you, that's fine. Your ideas have a place and should be allowed. They will inspire the direction of many. (mine, as a matter of fact!) Some people are bent that way. But it's not for everybody, nor should it be.

John, I think your ideas are great. I loved my experience in your shop, and I'll be back. But I hope people realize that it's possible to make great coffee and make customers really happy with their experience without following your rules. I had a friend in college who blew my mind with coffee he roasted in a pop corn popper, ground in a chopper grinder, and brewed in a plug in drip machine. We NEED the whole spectrum, because people are everywhere on it.

I understand people help in their own ways and I will try to take it with a grain of salt for the future. After all, I'm new to the roaster scene and Small Business Community. I just hope everyone understands that just because we have a relatively new concept doesn't make it wrong it just makes it different. If we can make it work than everyone wins. I do realize that some FDNY firefighters aren't going to "get" our product but I do hope that they "get" our passion, and want to share it with us.

 

[slurp]

Yawn.........

 

[Brewsbroscafe]

I was not trying to be negative in my post. I also believe that BrewsBroCafe took some of the comments as an attack. I think there were many good points made. I have a couple other quick questions..
How big is the office you are going to use for storage?
How many different coffees are you going to carry at a time?
Is it legal to exhaust directly out your window?

I understand that you can not have a small roaster due to space constraints...I am all about making things work but sometimes it just will not. I have a 500 sq ft roastery. In it I have a 60 kilo, afterburner, 2 MPE Grinders, weigh and fill, band sealer and 70 bags of coffee. It sucks. My life has been hell due to the size of my place, but its what we could afford when we started. After 4 years I am finally moving to a warehouse. If you just want to get by until you can afford a bigger roaster..will it be good enough to get you there? Yes the average person that has an average palate drinks coffee...are they willing to pay a premium for mediocre coffee? Have you ever roasted on an electric roaster? I have and personally didn't like it. I do wish you the best and hope that it works out. Keep it posted.

Office space is around 15X9 but as I stated in a previous comment our Green Coffee Importer is allowing us store in his warehouse, as it is 1/4 mile down the road.
We are intending on carrying at a time around 4 types of coffee. We are using a 4 tier Pour-Over method and only that, unless things get too out of control. Its a smaller building so we don't anticipate that.
Yes, we have the health dept. fully on board with our concept.
I learned on a Behmor 1600 (I know, not that impressive but it was electric). We are confident that we have a great product that will be accepted into the lives of our customers. We have attended 4 Coffee Fests and a week long research trip to Seattle, Maryland (Ceremony), Brooklyn NYC (Stone Street) and have sampled over 50 top Industry Roasters. Somehow and I Know its not our imaginations, our finished product tastes better or at the very least right on par with the lot. Call me crazy but I really do think we're on to something here. Fingers Crossed!!!! Thank you for the support and guidance.

 

[Brewsbroscafe]

Brewsbros,

I am aware that I did not answer your question. I was making note that slurp --despite you running the numbers -- actually had sound and solid advice. There are many prominent roasters and roaster-retailers, myself included, that started with someone outside doing their roasting. Why? It takes a lot of expertise to be a good, commercial roaster. Roasting at home, or for a small crowd is a far cry from roasting even for a kiosk style shop like you have described.

Starting AND running a business is difficult, so alleviating yourself of some of that might be best in the beginning year. And if you are using better coffee, you can charge more, so the margins will work. Once you have that price established, and continue to perfect your craft on possibly some better equipment, you will be able to nudge the prices up a bit as well after that initial year or so.

The Sonofresco is a nice starter roaster, and I know a few places that use a bank of them for their business and do pretty well... But when it comes down to it, they are not great roasters. They are a $2-$3K roaster that roasts as such. Yes, YOUR skill has a lot to do with it, but your skill can't exceed the capabilities of the machine, which are limited.

So you can be upset that we chose not to answer your question, or be happy that someone cared enough to present a viable, and proven alternative that will give you a greater chance of early success.

Either way, best of luck. I hope you succeed.

Thank you for the advice and as I've stated to Redswing, I need to take things with a grain of salt more. These last 4 years haven't been easy, trying to get investors and then trying to keep them after the legal battling we had to do for the last year and change. (location is stuck in the middle of a very strict town with crazy zoning laws). Those years have taken a toll on me and my business partner. Like I said earlier, we just want to open and feel productive again, so whatever we have to do to make that happen we will do. I thank you for being honest and hope the advice keeps coming.

 

[Brewsbroscafe]

Update; So we may have found a suitable replacement to the Sonofresco 2LB Gas Roaster. Its called the TJ-067 built by North Coffee in Southern China with the US Distributor located at Mill City Roasters in Minneapolis. We have submitted it to our Kiosk builder and he's going to check to see if it will fit. Its gonna save us $1000 and actually is way better reviewed then the Sonofresco. Its 2.2LB fully electric Roaster.

Electric Coffee Roasting Machine

 

[peterjschmidt]

Will there be adequate electrical service for that roaster?

 

[Bardo]

I wish you great good luck in your venture. From experience I can say that it is the most dangerous time, when you are fully committed to a project, having delved deeply into it and invested time, blood sweat and tears to make it work. And then to have some one roll in with information or advice that seems to contradict your plan. It is hard, but it is even harder when they turn out to be right. Consider the input that contradicts your plan even more carefully than that which does not, it might save you more than it costs you in pride of ownership. Or you could be right. Either way, have fun!