Roasting Single Origin for espresso?

[LiftOff]

I'll drink the famous Italian Molinari as an espresso, but only when fresh, so when in Italy, I'll have a shot of it.

 

[Alun_evans]

My point exactly Liftoff!...and if in Arizona I will have the best that is available- freshly roasted from the local roaster :grin: ... Sometimes in Asia for example, there is this unfathomible attraction to foreign brands. I know a very good roaster in China, Render, who roast over 10,000kg month for the local market. The Italian brands though sell a lot more just on the fact they are foreign, therefore must be better....albeit 6 months old by the time the bag/can is popped open :shock:

 

[Alun_evans]

Liftoff....what origins have you already decided on? Maybe I can recommend some from my little corner of the world if you have not already selected one. Generally speaking some of the Papua/Irian Arabicas, as well as some of the North and Western Sumatran Arabicas make for good SOS's....suspect you may already have a Sumatran in there 8)

 

[pstam]

body of the espresso than the smell

I'll drink the famous Italian Molinari as an espresso, but only when fresh, so when in Italy, I'll have a shot of it.

What you said is true. But, in our opinion, if the good coffee is fresh, it is perfect. But, the fresh coffee which is not good enough makes no very good coffee. Espresso blending is not really so easy to do as most people supposed to be. We also prefer the fresh beans from a good roaster if possible.

 

[pstam]

how to compare Italian roast and your local roast?

My point exactly Liftoff!...and if in Arizona I will have the best that is available- freshly roasted from the local roaster :grin: ... Sometimes in Asia for example, there is this unfathomible attraction to foreign brands. I know a very good roaster in China, Render, who roast over 10,000kg month for the local market. The Italian brands though sell a lot more just on the fact they are foreign, therefore must be better....albeit 6 months old by the time the bag/can is popped open :shock:

This really does not make sense.

Producing more does not mean good, especially if you know they sell the beans to the big hotel where they care only the cost, not the quality. That could be typical in China (yes or no?), including the ones managed by international managing group. Like, Shangri-la, Hilton, Sheraton, etc.

Italian blends cost more also in the market in the States. This is true, right?

 

[Alun_evans]

I am not sure what you mean. My coffee experience in Asia is this- (and although you may think I generalise I can assure you its very accurate). You take a group of coffee 'experts'- barista, hotel/cafe F&B Managers, cafe owners and put them in a room to cup espresso blends. To fool them somewhat (or perhaps to prove my point) I will leave the packaging out. The shots that come from what they think is the Italian brand...the Illy's, Lavazza's, Bonomi's etc always get "this is the best", the shots from what they think are local brands get the thumbs down. Of course there is numbed silence when you reveal that actually the Italian coffees were the local ones and vice-versa. I think often here (I am speaking about Indonesia not China) perception is weighted towards the pricey foreign brands. I have to say to you that just because Illy sells for $30 a kg, the price has absolutley NO relevance to the quality of the roasted product. Thankfully Indonesia AND the rest of Asia has some very fine specialty roasters that are breaking down the barriers. The reason that the specialty roasters are getting into the brand hotels actaully has nothing to do with price. It is because (fortunatley) many of the senior personal are open to the fact that spec roasters may indeed have a fresher product with perhaps a roast suited to their market. I have had a long day roasting...but I find it hard to believe an individual who porportedly has a training biz would push the line that a mainstream European roaster is better than some of the local roasters in China?? Odd... perhaps you should arrange a cupping session with some of your local roasters- there are 5 I can think of off hand who roast product good enough to make me take notice. :!:

 

[pstam]

I am not sure what you mean. :!:

Never talk about the things which you never know.

How did you know what happened in China? Do you know the managers of the big hotels charge the roasters for RMB100,000 for entering their hotels, personelly?

If you are talking about the roasters of Singapore, let me know what is your comments about the very old roaster in Singapore. Sorry, I do not remember their name, but I tasted their coffee.

Not even mension those freshly new roasters, not the coffee.

On the other hand, blending, epsecially for espresso, is not as easy as you know.
[/b]

 

[pstam]

Generally speaking, I don't agree with the single origin espresso, which is not really taste enough, eccept Monssoon of India or maybe few of others.

One more, the coffee machines should work in different condition for different beans; like temperature and pump pressure and so on. It means that you have to have one machines for the standard espresso and one for each other beans because you cannot adjust the machine for each cup of espresso. Otherwise, you do not guarantee the quality of the cup.

Looking for your commnets.

 

[Alun_evans]

Actually you only need one espresso machine but must adjust the grind for the espresso and the SOS's. If you re in a busy retail outlet it takes a well trained team to make this work- but its not impossible. Some of the boutique outlets I provide coffee for manage to make this work quite well (although they have multiple grinders set up). The Single origin shots are a very popular extra- especially in cafes and restaurants that are in areas where the coffee consumers are pretty well educated.

 

[pstam]

Actually you only need one espresso machine but must adjust the grind for the espresso and the SOS's. If you re in a busy retail outlet it takes a well trained team to make this work- but its not impossible. Some of the boutique outlets I provide coffee for manage to make this work quite well (although they have multiple grinders set up). The Single origin shots are a very popular extra- especially in cafes and restaurants that are in areas where the coffee consumers are pretty well educated.

I doubt what your good espresso means. If you talk about some good coffee roaster in China, like Shanghai, I can image because I know their coffee very well.

Days ago, I talk to the Italian Chamber of Commerce with many Italian staffs. They told me that the espresso in most coffee shops in China is not really espresso. A small cup of black liquid with some crema, whatever it looks, I do not really know how to call it if it does not taste like espresso.

For example, do you like the beef if it was cooked like carbon?

 

[pstam]

The most important.

One machine never work well without well adjustment.

Extraction time is somehow fixed, and how you adjust the grinder for the courseness of the powder. It defers from the right extraction. If you were saying the right things, how a coffee shop to grind the beans for the clients?

It is obviously that the right extraction depends on the courseness of the ground, temperature of the water, pump pressure, dosing and so on. You have to get balance among all of those things. With only one side, you are never getting the target.

Right, it is rather difficult, but not impossible. Here is the point.

 

[Alun_evans]

Well, thats why you are in the training field right? If most espresso tastes bad in China- the likelyhood is the barista have not been well trained- so I can see you are going to become a very rich man/woman! Good for you. Its the same in Indonesia- most establishments have no idea how to pull a shot. It does not matter what blend of espresso they use, even mine, it will taste like crap unless they are trained. You know the 4 'M's' of espresso- well here there are sometimes only 2 in evidence. As for machines, I am the country rep for CMA, the biggest Italian espresso machine manufacture. I know the CMA guys in China and they perform very good maintainence and training programmes to go hand-in-hand with their machines. I your clients are having problems deliverying good espresso related directly to the espresso machine, I suggest you call CMA and go into business with them.

I have to say, and I am sure EVERYONE on this forum would agree. The grind IS the singular most important ingredient at the retail/barista level for deliverying excellent espresso. If the grind is off you can not get a 25 second extraction time- you will get under or over extracted espresso. Forget the pump pressure, the doasage- this should all be a "gimme" in most oppertaions....the grind is the one area that is falliable.

 

[bean_there_Bunn_that]

Wow, you guys are getting a little combative on this issue . I live in a city where the local roasters absolutley kill the Italian espresso blends. I have also lived in Hong Kong. At the time it was not part of China but it had some very nice local roasters. I have to agree with alun_evans that it is very surprising China does not have any decent roasters. Chill.

 

[LiftOff]

Just tasted a very nice Kenyan Mutwewathi as a single origin shot.
Liked it....alot!

 

[pstam]

Well, thats why you are in the training field right?

It is easy to see.

let the guy of CMA in China train the staffs and provide their machine in a bar in Beijing. And we'll see the result.

Till now, I have not see any one in Beijing, and Guangzhou is even was.