High-end two or three group espresso machines

[admiral]

Dear Members,

First of all, thank you for the great information in this forum and for your continuous support.

I am currently looking for two or three group espresso machine in Montreal, QC, and I would like your advice on machines being able to pull great shots and has good warranty/service.

I am starting a coffee shop here and although I want my future-barista to be comfortable with the machine I get, I would still want him/her to be using a heavy-duty, elegant, and premium quality machinery that's able to pull consistently great shots.

I appreciate any feed back on which machines currently lead the North American market and are preferred by the market, or any advice on how to research what are the best local alternatives/suppliers.

Thank you in advance,
Admiral

 

[peterjschmidt]

I won't offer advice, since I haven't used any commercial machines in a cafe setting. But I will say that buying the best in any endeavor is a great strategy, in that it removes any doubt or excuses. For example, a couple months back I decided to see what my buddies attraction is regarding cigar smoking, so I bought some very very good cigars so that if I didn't like them I knew it wasn't the cigar. If you buy an espresso machine considered to be among the best, and your barista doesn't perform well, at least you'll know it's not the machine.

 

[John P]

Admiral,

If you are in Montreal you should go (if you haven't been) to cafe Myriade and talk to Scott Rao if he is around.b At the very least, see what they are doing, and that's a great reference point.

There's a definite divide between the top machines and everything else. Among those top machines it comes down to preference. Do what you can to get some hands on time and understand what their capabilities, pros and cons are, and make an informed decision.

 

[slurp]

admiral welcome to the board!!!!

This is my favorite subject currently As a roaster I search out espresso machines for my coffee lab. I test coffee as my customers and their customers will use it.

Most high end machines are 2 or three group But you can get anything you want. Synesso have a 9 group at their both this year for SCAA. For a two group you should expect to pay $15,000 to $25,000 on for the higher end machines.

Now I am sure there will be additional machines added to this post BUT the ones I am listing are the top of the class.

I will list the machines and give my personal opinion of the top three.

First up is Slayer. http://www.slayerespresso.com

These machines are produced as ordered and can be highly customized in Seattle. Makes a very good espresso. Maintance has to be done with the jets and rings everyonce in a while. Customer service -Well the owner was two busy playing with the young hipsters making espresso at his booth than talking to the guy holding a check book big enough to buy 20 machines. So never less I was completely turned off on buying his machines. If I had to be a young cool hipster Slayer is not the company for me.

Second machine that is at the top is the La Marzocco Strada series built in Italy. La Marzocco Strada EP (Electronic Paddle) 2 Group - LM_STRADA_2GR_EP available from Espresso Parts

These machines make great espresso! an two group runs about $20,000. The machine that I know of is a production machine. You get what you get for the most part. Stradas have to have the brew groups rebuilt every 3 months, this comes form people I know that own them not the manual. Additionally these machines are built in Italy, good luck getting parts and if you need something in August forget it. Factories close for the entire month in August for vacation. With the brew groups having to be rebuilt frequently and getting parts from Italy this machine is one of the top three but buyer beware!!!! I was ready to buy a Strada since a competitor has one. After doing the research, no thanks.

Last is Synesso Hydra (did you see the heavens one up? Happens every time I think of this machine) Hydra
The two machines above are basically knock offs of this machine. These are a built to order machine and you can get it customized anyway you like while being manufactured in Seattle.

While attending the SCAA this year as I mentioned above the Strada was on the purchase list. I was ready to hand over the Black Card and have one delivered. Well while in Seattle almost every espresso bar that was not a Starbucks had a Synesso including Storyville, Moto Coffee, and Seattle Coffee Works. This peaked my interest. While on the floor at SCAA I had to see these machines. I walked up looking like the bum as normal and started asking questions to a guy at the booth. He was super nice and knew all about the machines. Come to find out the guy was Mark Barnett and is the designer of the Synesso Machines. Super knowledgable, super nice and gave me more time than anyone at the show while the Synesso booth was packed. Now for those that know espresso machines Mark is the man, really he is the man before Synesso formed he was the designer and USA guy for La Marzooco. Yes the same one that makes the Strada in fact the Strada is a knock off of the Mark's Synesso design.

So I bought a two group Hydra from Synesso, it was made to order, arrived on time and I have never had a problem with the machine. Any time I have had a silly question someone was there to answer no matter the time of day. I can not tell you how awesome this machine is and the service is the best of anything I have ever owned. I invite anyone in South Florida to come on over for an espresso for a Synesso Hydra.

here are some videos of my synesso:
Pulling shot on the new Center Stage Coffee Synesso Hydra espresso machine. - YouTube
Espresso Tonic - YouTube

 

[slurp]

Humm thought there would be discussion on this subject. Top her you want to chime in? Rose? You have a back ground in making drinks. What do you all think?

 

[peterjschmidt]

Humm thought there would be discussion on this subject. Top her you want to chime in? Rose? You have a back ground in making drinks. What do you all think?

Everyone's afraid to contradict your advice on the Hydra.

 

[JumpinJakJava]

Everyone's afraid to contradict your advice on the Hydra.

Could not argue at all with the 3 machines listed above.
I would throw this one in the mix.
Kees van der Westen ~ Purchasing the Speedster one group machine
They do have 2 and 3grp. too.

I have had some awesome espresso pulled from the Faema Legend.

 

[CCafe]

Its like this, you can buy all the high end equipment you want but the catch will always be service. Everyone and their brother says they have service providers in every corner of the world. The sad truth is they don't. Its pretty funny when you get some guy who's never worked on a piece of equipment but he listed as the service provider in your area. Truth be told I would suggest you find the local service company and find out what they sell as well as what they service and how much inventory they keep on hand. I'd rather purchase something from a local guy who can fix my bread and butter machine the same day. If your service guy has to drive more than 4 hours round trip you better be prepared to have some down time.

Or you can go buy that high end $25,000 toy and take your chance.

 

[chast]

Neither Kees or Slayer are UL approved. Kees was looking into it as I heard through a rep. One of Kees machines went up in flames a couple of years ago. Slayer claims they are to small to get it checked out and get the stamp. Wasn't wild about the conversation I had on the phone with them, seemed like I was bothering them with my questions. Their business went viral after the episode on the Food Network Channel. All these high end companies say either you send the machine back for repair, big bucks on the customers part, or they will send you the parts and you fix it. If you want them to come to you the parts are free but you pay for travel and lodging. Does not matter what you spend on a machine if the beans and roast are not right. Then you can get into water quality. The other gimmick I am hearing is you MUST use their filters or there will be no warranty! Slurpy is a perfectionist and I am sure he has his system tuned to the max to produce the perfect shot and also by having the correct external variables.

 

[shadow745]

High end means little if you (the barista) isn't on par with the equipment. IMBHO buying a name is a waste anyway when there are lots of affordable/capable machines/grinders on the market. My vote is to get away from the machines with PIDs, adjustable brew pressure profiling, etc. B.S. and go back to a machine in which actual skill is required... a multiple group manual lever machine.

 

[CCafe]

1. Neither Kees or Slayer are UL approved.

2. The other gimmick I am hearing is you MUST use their filters or there will be no warranty! Slurpy is a perfectionist and I am sure he has his system tuned to the max to produce the perfect shot and also by having the correct external variables.

1. IMO UL can overburden manufactures with some very stupid regulations that have no basis. I've seen machines that were required to double fuse the branch circuits that were already on a breaker inside the machine. I've seen other equipment that had cord sized for 60 amp machines installed on 30 amp equipment all because the UL required it in order to be UL certified. I understand why the UL exist as well as NSF but sometimes they go too far in their requirements.

2. Those filters you talk about aren't always required. Most manufactures will have some leniency as long as they know the location has a preexisting water filtration and softening system and or reverse osmosis. Buffered cartridges are all the rage now. Its hard to tell the hard core people that you shouldn't buy into it because they hear how the cartridge buffers the PH of the water, bypass a small amount of filtered water by the softener system to bring your grains of hardness back up around 3 to 7 grains for better extraction. When they hear everything this cartridge does they go gaga for it.

Water in Iowa is hardly below 10 grains. Go up north and you can find water jumping around a lot. It ranges from 10 to 60 grains. We have a place about 1.5 hours north of me that makes drywall. So you can imagine how nice the water must be. Last TDS meter reading hammered it around 769PPM and about 40 grain water. Problem is when you get to this type of water those buffered cartridges don't cut it. First thing is they are expensive and secondly they have a capacity of about 1/7th of that if you supplied it with only 6 grain water. So the cartridges fail super fast.

I'm big into RO if done right. I like to buy the little 5 stage systems and convert them over into systems I can use. If you want a list of modifications I make give me a shout sometime.

 

[slurp]

Or you can go buy that high end $25,000 toy and take your chance.

My Synesso "toy" has two of everything so if one side breaks the other side can be used while the other side is being serviced if needed. You may also want to know most high end shops with these machines have more than one. Take intelligentsia Vinice Beach has 5 two group machines in service. Stoyville has two Synessos in each store.

High end means little if you (the barista) isn't on par with the equipment. IMBHO buying a name is a waste anyway when there are lots of affordable/capable machines/grinders on the market. My vote is to get away from the machines with PIDs, adjustable brew pressure profiling, etc. B.S. and go back to a machine in which actual skill is required... a multiple group manual lever machine.

All three machines I listed are manual machines that the barista can be an artist. I do agree a Synesso Hydra is machine that is not for your average fast food worker. The high end machine discussion is about top of the line machines for artist not your average barista.

Do not be a hater just because you have not or can not throw down the $$$ like the big boys. High end is what it is and not for everyone.

 

[shadow745]

Manual as in hands-on, not a POS overpriced paperweight with a pump.

Hater?!? Hardly... wouldn't waste time or money on hype. I always enjoy walking into places that push overpriced equipment and put the 'artistic wannabe' pencil neck baristi in their place.

 

[chast]

I agree CCafe that the UL stamp is an over rated hype for control but in my state if that stamp is not on the equipment the building inspectors won't allow it. I realize there are many items in the work place that do not have the stamp, but these have been replaced after the final inspection.

Doesn't matter if you have a 2500.00 machine or a 25K machine. It all depends if you have the customer base to support it

 

[CCafe]

Do not be a hater just because you have not or can not throw down the $$$ like the big boys. High end is what it is and not for everyone.

We're not being haters. The problem is you troll the forum and try to push an espresso machine that for the most part is to expensive for your average user on everyone you see. We understand that you like your machine.

As to your independent groups, its a great concept until you get the repair bill for your 5 year overhaul but at that point you won't complain in the slightest. Because it comes back to what Jay Leno said about repairing a clutch. You don't buy a $100,000 car and complain about a $5000 clutch.

But it does burn my hide when anyone comes on here asking for advice and the only thing you can spew is that synesso. Try to help people for a change rather than being a in your face I have a synesso and everyone else sucks.