Help Please: Buying an Espresso Machine is complicated. Can anyone help me?

[Nishan]

Buying an espresso machine seems complicated to me !!! can anyone help with this ?

 

[Musicphan]

What is your budget and what type of drinks do you want to make?

 

[shadow745]

As mentioned, budget/expected use are primary things to focus on. Thing is achieving good espresso consistently takes a lot of time/effort/patience and it isn't for everybody. Other than the machine you also have to factor in a capable grinder, decent accessories like a tamper, scale, etc. Of course you also need to source fresh coffee consistently and pay attention to the water quality used in the machine along with cleaning/preventive maintenance.

 

[shadow745]

My problem with a super auto is they appear to create what is barely considered passable espresso. The lack of brew pressure, low dose, rather coarse grind, etc. will definitely lead to thinner/weaker extractions. Regardless of brand/features there's gonna be no real comparison to a quality machine/grinder that's dialed in. Yes the super auto will be much easier to operate and give consistency with no real effort, but the end result for me would likely be similar to drip/pourover, which is pretty much flavored water. I've never tried one, but based on lots of videos/forum complaints I seriously doubt any of them could impress me. Not to also mention the cost of some is ridiculous for what ends up in the cup.

 

[shadow745]

The '15 bars of pressure' is marketing idiocy at best. Higher pressure doesn't lead to better extraction as some manufacturers claim, they just try pushing it as a top selling point. That's simply the absolute max pressure a vibe pump can reach, but factor in the restrictive plumbing of most cheaper built machines and that flow drops rather quickly regardless of pressure. The grinders in super autos are barely adequate and aren't capable of grinding rather fine and those things are quite low on the dose for the amount of water pushed through them. There is nothing automatic (cars, coffee, etc.) that will ever outdo a human touch plain and simple.

Regarding an automatic car killing somebody... the blame should go on the idiot operating the car expecting it to safely control surroundings. What is this lame world coming to with all the damn laziness/expectation?

 

[Musicphan]

Just because it can generate 15 bars of pressure, doesn't mean you have to use all 15 bars of pressure; just because a car has the capacity to kill somebody...
Human already touched it by programming it, so don't blame the machine if program doesn't work. If you can't teach a machine to do something plain and simple, you can't blame the machine either.

I think you're missing his point... 15 bars is a marketing gimic. Nobody extracts at that high of pressure and new research are showing that lower & variable pressure extraction can actually improve the quality. Current auto's do a good job of making espresso drink but won't compare to a highly qualified barista w/ solid machine & grinders.

 

[shadow745]

Just because it can generate 15 bars of pressure, doesn't mean you have to use all 15 bars of pressure; just because a car has the capacity to kill somebody...
Human already touched it by programming it, so don't blame the machine if program doesn't work. If you can't teach a machine to do something plain and simple, you can't blame the machine either.

If you expect an automated process to be near 100% flawless then you're the one that will be disappointed. You likely have a bit of buyer's remorse in spending thousands on a cheaply made/simple machine that is likely far from maximum excellence and you defend it for that reason. Reminds me of a guy that was killed a few years ago letting his auto pilot car transport him around. Think he was watching a movie or reading a paper and the crash killed him. Stupidity with a well deserved ending!

 

[shadow745]

More power to you, lmao...

Back on topic, there is no automatic machine ever made that will compare with a semi-auto/manual type setup. More convenient/repeatable with no effort, yes, but the end result won't be close to awesome for most people.

 

[shadow745]

Smart people, lmao? Usually the big spenders are the ones that 'know' the least and need something automated to make up for the lack of skill/intelligence needed.

Defend the overpriced plastic/push button machines all you want and I imagine anybody that has the least bit of espresso experience would see a drastic difference between both machine types. Even the popular companies selling both types will readily admit super autos are for those that simply want decent/repeatable espresso with push button convenience/minimal effort. Even the crazy expensive commercial super autos used by Charbux, McDonalds, Dunkin Donuts, etc. can't come close to a typical semi-auto machine/grinder and those things are in the $15-20,000 range.

I categorize semi-auto/manual as being quite similar as I've had both and the absolute best espresso from both are quite similar. Only real difference is one has a pump and the other a piston, but functionality is the same otherwise and both require a hands-on approach. The automated brewing systems in super autos are pretty lame in comparison regarding build quality, performance and longevity.

 

[shadow745]

I'm far from religious, just been around espresso way more than most and know machines/grinders. I don't need a blind taste test to know super autos are among the most pathetic forms of espresso available. They have a place in the market, just don't expect anything great from any of them, plain and simple.

If talk is cheap I'd put my typical extraction against anything out there regardless of machine/grinder/roaster.

 

[shadow745]

Dude, you're fighting a losing argument so do me a favor and go play with that overpriced disposable toy 'espresso' machine and stop wasting my time.

 

[Musicphan]

WhyCoffee... super autos fall down in two different areas - grind adjustment and milk frothing. First, most super auto machines simply do not have the ability to adjust grind size like a high-end grinder such as an EK or similar quality. Most high-end manual grinders are stepless and offer an unlimited ability to set the grind larger/smaller. Most super auto's have stepped grinder adjustment so there is a finite level of adjustment available. Obviously grind size affects not only the flow of the shot but has a significant impact on taste. Secondly, most of the super autos base milk frothing off of temperature - it has no ability to sense the 'quality' of the microfoam of the milk. A properly steamed milk will add a touch of sweetness and improve the mouthfeel/texture of the milk - this is something a super auto simply can't do. Super autos have a place in the market - they are the k-cup of the world for espresso. However, a trained barista on quality equipment will outperform any super auto machine.

 

[Musicphan]

So it's human error: humans programmed them to work that way, nothing to do with machines! Again, there is no blind test data to support "a trained barista on quality equipment will outperform any super auto machine" because 99.9% of the people in the world can't tell the difference with the rest trained barista, well, they have to enjoy their own work, don't they?

Clearly you enjoy 'arguing' vs. learning... its not human programming its limitation of the machine. And the fact that 99.9% of the people can't tell teh difference doesn't provide facts that its better/worse. Good luck with your super auto..

 

[Musicphan]

If you felt any "fighting" instead of "learning", you probably already know you simply can't find any data to support your claim. Or even worse, all the data is actually against your claim. Here is an example:
Baristas are going obsolete as espresso machines move into fancy restaurants and crush humans in a taste test: https://www.businessinsider.com/baristas-are-going-obsolete-2015-6
Joy in the task: https://aeon.co/essays/is-nothing-sacred-any-more-the-death-of-artisan-coffee

Baristas is not even as good as capsules? Damn!

Your last comment is showing your ignorance of the preparation of good coffee...

 

[Musicphan]

Ignorance is to make tons of claims without any proof/test data.

Agree....so where is your proof