Small roaster to gain skills

[peterjschmidt]

Did Steve ask you to write that?

That's quite a cynical reply...



Nobody's asking you to defend what size roaster you have. Nobody's saying you should do anything differently than you are. Nobody said a 9 YO refurb was wrong, but that there could be some other roaster to consider in that price range. Your alluding to a North roaster as a Geo Metro, however... that was wrong; what are you basing that on?

 

[docdvm]

I understand your cynicism. We all have different backgrounds and different ambitions. For instance I have no ambition to develop my roasts commercially. At best I would be happy if I could sell some to cover the roasts I gift out to family and some friends and cover some of the costs of the roaster. Sure I don't expect that drinking freshly roasted coffee should be free nor do I expect to make it a business. As a veterinarian I can do better in my profession. I enjoy roasting and preparing coffee. My children are both over 30 and don't mind me roasting. But with a hotTop is takes me 2 to 3 hours every week for 2 pounds of coffee. I run 2 back to back roasts at a time and then let the roaster cool down. I could never run an automated profile on a hotTop as each roast records markedly different temps. I have 2 thermocouples installed so have some understanding of the roasting process. Artisan is really not a requirement but is fun to watch the graph.

Anyway I do hope that you are successful with your business venture. I find that a north Roaster with 1 kg. batch size more than fits my needs . Truly a 500gm. roaster would do the job but having a 1 kg. might be useful at times. (Like Xmas) I would love to have a San Francisco Roaster and in fact would prefer a North American manufactured one, but at twice the price, I just cannot see it. $4000 buys a lot of green beans!

As for the question whether Steve asked me write. No he did not. I have contacted most of the Roaster companies and have found Steve to be one of the most helpful. I imagine that I have been a pain to deal with since my questions are relentless. I have contacted people in China, Turkey and the USA and most don't have much time for me. Response is very short and not very helpful. Discussing competitors products is not welcome either. I have compared the North Roaster and found it to be a considerable step up from the HotTop. Would I like a San Franciscan or Diedrich or Probat? Absolutely. Could you find one for me for $4000?

 

[MillCityRoasters]

A hobby style side business with about $12,000 in startup costs that is set to make its first real return in about 2 years.

I appreciate Doc and Peter chiming in; you are both very kind, thank you. if I recall correctly, Peter visited us when we were still operating around printing presses. Thankfully they are gone and we're finally starting on the full and official build-out this Thursday.

Redwings, I'm sincerely not trying to be a jerk here, but the real answer is this: we can offer a comparable 3 kg roaster that, based on your numbers, would have probably allowed you to turn a profit 12 months sooner.

Before we argue about the meaning of "comparable", please consider that I have spent time with both. No one has to take my word for anything. All they need to do is get their hands on one.

We've seen good and bad stuff come out of China. Some of the good stuff is the Baldor motor you appreciate on your SF. Some of the bad stuff is detailed in blogs on our website detailing our experience with other roasters we experimented with. We're neither hiding anything nor building anything up. It's just the facts.

And for the record, Doc, my very large and extended Chinese family won't touch much that's Chinese either for the very good reason it's still the "Wild West" over there. Fortunately, we have developed a very close and personally warm relationship with North. Simply put, we trust them with both our money and our reputation. They have yet to let us down.

 

[Redswing]

I find that this discussion is pertinent to the OP. I was clear that I wasn't saying my choice in equipment is a better choice for everyone, rather making the case that it should be included in the discussion. So, yes, I believe the OP in seeking advice WAS asking me to defend my perspective.

Doesn't my comment about Steve asking the Doc to write that have a behind it?

 

[docdvm]

I find that this discussion is pertinent to the OP. I was clear that I wasn't saying my choice in equipment is a better choice for everyone, rather making the case that it should be included in the discussion. So, yes, I believe the OP in seeking advice WAS asking me to defend my perspective.

Doesn't my comment about Steve asking the Doc to write that have a behind it?

Redswing I don't understand your issues
I think you are speaking to yourself trying to justify your small business. You know as well as anyone that your profits are minor commendable for a hobby but certainly not enough for you to give up your day job. I have no ambition to follow in your footsteps. In fact I am just a hobbyist trying to make a decision on whether it is worth it to upgrade my HotTop which will soon need a replacement. Choices are
1. replace the hotTop with another
2. For similar expense get a Huky increasing batch size to 500 gm and using gas
3. Spend $4000 and get a North TJ=067
4. Spend $5500 for a Amazon 1.5 kg. Roaster
5. Look for a refurbished Roaster from a North American Company
6. Spend $8000 + for a new Sample Roaster from a North American Company

So what would you do? Seems like I cannot find a refurbished or even used Roaster. For my use the Huky would serve me well and the savings versus buying roasted coffee would pay for the roaster in 2 years. Are you interested in selling your Roaster?

I have searched the forums and find good reviews of the North. Steve has been very helpful and has addressed both the pros and cons . The other distributors have not given me the time of day. You certainly feel that the San Francisco Roaster is far superior. But is there a difference in the cup? I am sure that a master Roaster can use a Huky, a $1000 Roaster, and get great results. Likely I can too in time as Steve has suggested. So as you can see I have not decided what I am buying yet but do not want to go through this process in another year or 2.

So you can see, in my budget the options are not great. For the money the North seems like a good buy. If you don't think so then be specific. What part of the Roaster do you object to. Is it the gauge of the steel, the motor, the injectors, the thermocouples , the electronics, what? Now that would be helpful.
So to get on topic, I think that to learn Roasting the Huky is probably the best unit. It offers gas roasting with plenty of heat. The Roaster is Steel ( Cast Iron would probably be better) each part of the roaster is separate and controlled manually. That way you learn to adjust heat, fan, and time individually and learn what affects your coffee bean variety throughout the roast monitoring with the thermocouples possibly an Omega HH506RA and possibly Artisan.

Then you can decide on whether to upgrade to a small commercial Roaster.

 

[Redswing]

I see I am taking a bit of a beating here, so I offer my sincere apologies to anyone I've seemed combative towards. Honestly, that is not my goal, and it's not how I feel.

 

[chast]

check with Dan at US Roaster Corp in OK City. He sometimes has some used/refurbished roasters. Bill at CoffeePer might have a trade in of a sample SF roaster. Two great companies to deal with. Both companies fire the roasters up prior to shipping to make sure there ready to roast when you receive them.

 

[Amhas]

I see I am taking a bit of a beating here, so I offer my sincere apologies to anyone I've seemed combative towards. Honestly, that is not my goal, and it's not how I feel.

Redswing, I feel you were attacked unfairly. I saw your just kidding emote, but obviously there seems to be some very defensive individuals here. I also take your comments very seriously as well. I had the same feeling you did and I spent the extra $ to buy something built here in the USA. Will it impact my bottom line, yes it will but I felt it was the right thing to do. There are those that can't and won't understand that and they don't understand the impacts that it has to go elsewhere when purchasing outside out country. All that said I understand where those individuals are coming from as well and I don't knock them for doing so. I just wish that they would afford the same latitude to individuals like you when you share your opinions.

 

[peterjschmidt]

Odd, because there is no bouncy smiley behind the post in question, but when Redswing asked about it, that post has one. Maybe in some browsers they don't show up all the time. ?


Redswing, I see you as a member of this forum who typically is helpful and encouraging, and would hold nothing in this thread against you.

Amhas, there was no attacking going on anywhere... but what I saw was a retailer - Steve - simply suggesting to someone looking for advice offering an alternative by saying they should consider a new/lower-priced import along with the route Redswing took, who then had his roasters compared to a Geo Metro. I'm still curious if anyone posting negatively about the North roasters has any actual experience.

But overall, I don't think anyone got their feelings hurt too badly; this is just normal forum stuff.

 

[docdvm]

No offence from me although I am defensive concerning my decision. I take your advice to heart, Redswing. I have contacted US Roaster requesting and receiving a quote for their 1 lb. sample Roaster. Keep in mind that importing the roaster into Canada triggers tax and Duty in addition to exchange rates which results in added costs of over $1000 for a $4000 roaster. Considering that the USA model like the US Roaster in $6000 that would also increase taxes . So the North 1 kg. Roaster would end up costing me $5500 all inclusive and the US Roaster 1 lb. at a base price of $6140 add some options , shipping taxes and duties would end up at $7500. CErtainly if the US Roaster was $1000 more I would buy it. But $3500 is a big premium to pay for a 1 lb. roaster.

I also contacted Toper which has a distributor in Canada. They could ship directly to my door but would also cost $6310 US and I could pick it up. Anyone have experience with the Cafemino? Looks like a decent Turkish roaster too. I would still have to factor in taxes so will end up over $7000

So what looks like a deal to you? If the choice was between the Cafemino or the US Roaster it makes sense to stay with the US Roaster. But between the North and the other 2 , well, that is a different matter.

 

[Hankua]

My 2cents

I agree with Redswing, the OP is better of getting a roaster capable of producing 5lbs of roasted beans in one batch. Sure the 1K machine cost less but in reality is not much bigger than the Huky but costs 4X as much. 1K roasters are an oddball size for the U.S. market, not the case in Asia. That's why you don't see many commercial American roasters in that size.

In Doc's situation, he's better off importing a machine or getting a Huky. You can easily import a Taiwanese roaster from Yang -Chia Machine Works, a leading brand in the Far East. The 1K runs @ 6K and the 500g @ 3400$.

Chinese North roasters are a complete different discussion as the 1k's are priced way below anything comparable. So why is that? Are they dumping? Mr. Tim was on this very board offering the machines at a ridiculously low price and received many negative responses. As it turns out, the machines are quite capable even being the low price leader. Obviously you can't be the best and cheapest at the same time, right?

Which leads me to the political and social aspect of the discussion. Cheap Chinese products are everywhere, now we have coffee roasters? Is North trying to sell roasters below the fair market value? Flood the market with cheap (in price) 1K machines?

If you lose a finger or hand in a Chinese factory they pay you a fixed price. Safety glasses and hearing protection are optional in China; no workman's comp. or benefits. In other words the workers get screwed in China and labor unions are prohibited.

I own two Taiwanese roasters, one Yang-Chia 800n and a Huky500 so I'm also guilty of buying imported. But there is a vast difference between Taiwan and China and I've been to China over 10x and owned real estate there. Taiwan is a friend of the U.S. China is our so called friendly enemy. Remember our navy plane that had to emergency land on Hainan Island?

 

[MillCityRoasters]

Chinese North roasters are a complete different discussion as the 1k's are priced way below anything comparable. So why is that? Are they dumping? Mr. Tim was on this very board offering the machines at a ridiculously low price and received many negative responses. As it turns out, the machines are quite capable even being the low price leader. Obviously you can't be the best and cheapest at the same time, right?

Which leads me to the political and social aspect of the discussion. Cheap Chinese products are everywhere, now we have coffee roasters? Is North trying to sell roasters below the fair market value? Flood the market with cheap (in price) 1K machines?

If you lose a finger or hand in a Chinese factory they pay you a fixed price. Safety glasses and hearing protection are optional in China; no workman's comp. or benefits. In other words the workers get screwed in China and labor unions are prohibited.

I own two Taiwanese roasters, one Yang-Chia 800n and a Huky500 so I'm also guilty of buying imported. But there is a vast difference between Taiwan and China and I've been to China over 10x and owned real estate there. Taiwan is a friend of the U.S. China is our so called friendly enemy. Remember our navy plane that had to emergency land on Hainan Island?

OMG, Hank. Really?

Although Chinese based, like many Chinese companies, North/JYR is Taiwanese owned and operated. My first trip to China was in 1997 as a missionary. We supported non-state sanctioned churches, brought in humanitarian aid after a couple of devastating earthquakes, and later established a support network for Chinese orphanages and started an American adoption agency. Believe it or not, we own property in Beijing too. I import Chinese equipment into the US and export US made equipment to China on a regular basis. Is that enough street cred for you?

Can they be cheap and good? Well, yes. Visit the shop and see what all the hullabaloo is about. They put together roasters (1-120 kg, btw) about as good as roasters get at very competitive prices. I bring them into the US in quantity and pass the savings on. I'm sorry to tip over a sacred cow, but it worked for Walmart because people generally like to pay less and get more.

And as long as we're on the whole "don't buy imported stuff" thing, try to remember that you're buying imported coffee beans from some of the poorest people living in some of the poorest countries on the planet? Can you tell me why a poor Chinese worker is any less deserving of earning a living than a poor coffee farmer? Are either of them better off if I don't buy what they produce?

Here's the simple idea behind MCR: we provide the means to promote and increase commercial small batch artisan roasting. The more demand there is for better beans, the more money coffee growers and workers can make for their efforts and the more poor factory workers can be paid.

So what about poor American workers? Here's the answer: I make American stuff too. To survive in a competitive market, I allocate resources where I can be competitive and I prosper. I don't sit around complaining about "unfairness" in the market, much. Mostly because the market can be unfair much longer than I can be solvent.

Our theme is service and value, as in "do unto others". We think that's the original "win-win." If you can find anyone that has actually bought something from us that isn't completely satisfied with either our service or our value, it'll probably be the first we've heard about it.

Lastly, let me defend poor Mr. Tim. Tim's a guy that speaks a little English and works on commission. He's younger than most of my sons and was trying to promote his factory and earn a pretty minimal living. In the beginning, his tactics were a little hinky, but the vociferous responses some people had to him were overtly and inexcusably racist. The fact is, he's proved himself to be a heck of a good guy and didn't deserve any of that.

I'd ask you to lighten up, pay us a visit and have a cup of excellently roasted coffee. You'll likely make some new friends and maybe learn something too.

 

[chast]

Steve, do you fire up a roaster before it gets shipped? I have heard great reviews about your company and roasters. The most remarks I have seen or heard about was minor adjustment needed. Any machine can malfunction, due to shipping and handling and I would not be afraid of purchasing equipment from a Taiwan company. I spent a lot of time in Taiwan when I had my previous business. In some factories their QC is better than the states. I am a die hard US Roaster customer and I have checked out your sample roasters and if I was in the market for an inexpensive unit I would be visiting your facility. A companies warranty and customer service needs to be considered. I can name a few American built roasters that have p-ss poor service!!

 

[MillCityRoasters]

North roasts a batch or two before they crate. You'll usually find a little chaff and a couple of beans somewhere as "proof of life."

I do a visual inspection on everything. If it looks okay, we'll ship it in the original crate. Anything that looks like it took a hit is un-crated and tested.

The most common "adjustment" is front to rear drum spacing. If you have a 4 mm hex key handy, it's typically a 5 or 10 minute job. For all the roasters I have tested, I've never received one in need of adjustment, but I've talked maybe a half dozen people through the procedure on the phone.

 

[chast]

Thanks Steve,
I do have some customers that are looking to purchase a small roaster here on the east coast and your pricing is what they are looking for along with quality. I have heard you have excellent CS and that is important to me.