Looking for Geisha Beans seeds

[ensoluna]

I guess that you are a coffee exporter, just like me. I work in Guatemala and you are obviously at Ho Chi Min, Vietnam.
what kind of coffees do you normally export?
I have some customers, like from Australia, Taiwan, Korea, USA...etc, but they all buys their Robusta coffees from India, none from Vietnam, so I am just curious about your business. Do you have your own website or facebook that is related to your business?

I know very little about Vietnam coffee industry, so very eager to learn.
thanks
alex from Ensoluna

 

[wscafe]

I guess that you are a coffee exporter, just like me. I work in Guatemala and you are obviously at Ho Chi Min, Vietnam.
what kind of coffees do you normally export?
I have some customers, like from Australia, Taiwan, Korea, USA...etc, but they all buys their Robusta coffees from India, none from Vietnam, so I am just curious about your business. Do you have your own website or facebook that is related to your business?

I know very little about Vietnam coffee industry, so very eager to learn.
thanks
alex from Ensoluna

Hi, Ensoluna. I am just afraid that I might spam the forum (as you may know PinkRose is very strict at irrelevant posts...]. Just keep it short. I am working for WSCAFE - a wholesale coffee supplier from Vietnam.

You are right. India is a coffee giant. They export to many parts of the world especially processed coffee (mainly cheap instant coffee). If your customers buys instant coffee, they could buy from India as we do supply green coffee beans to two instant coffee plants in India. It is certain that Vietnam only exports green (raw) coffee beans to other coffee reexporters such as Germany, USA and India. Although Vietnam is currently a coffee giant of the world, 95% of its coffee export are green coffee. The main drawback of Vietnam coffee is marketing. However, we now pay much more efforts on marketing and producing processed coffees (roasted beans and instant coffees). But I think not many local roasters over here try to understand the world's local tastes in a serious way. And we, of course, need to keep continuous efforts.

For your explanation on geisha, I am really being convinced. Now I understand why coffeeforums.com is very famous. You are, actually, a coffee expert. It is very exciting that in Japan there are many Geisha. To some extent, geisha coffee and Japanese Geisha share many similarities. They are beautiful (or charming aromas), difficult to flirt (or difficult to grow). In Vietnam, we don't have geisha (both coffee and geisha artist). For geisha artist, in Vietnam, we have 'a dao' (aka in Vietnamese 'ả đào'). The a dao often performs their music in front of royal families or upper class. I am thinking of growing geisha coffee in Vietnam someday. As in Vietnam, we have Langbian mountains in the Central Highlands, which have a height of 2,163m (~7,096 feet) above sea level with high rainfall and big gaps of temperature btw day vs night, can be very suitable for growing Geisha.

You see, 100 lbs for US $35,000 is a very big deal. Not only Gigi but also I can give it a try.

The price of bulk green robusta in Vietnam today is at around US $1.6 per kg (or $1,600/ Metric ton). That is $35,000 can buy 21.875 Metric ton (or 21,875 kilogram) of green robusta. Wow:decaf:

 

[ensoluna]

hello WSCafe, below ### is my reply to you. And I sincerely thank you for sharing your info about Vietnam coffee.

I am just afraid that I might spam the forum (as you may know PinkRose is very strict at irrelevant posts...]. Just keep it short. I am working for WSCAFE - a wholesale coffee supplier from Vietnam.

### Never mind much about P.Rose. She can be tough, but she is also very nice. As far as I know, you are just doing fine. no need to worry ###

You are right. India is a coffee giant. They export to many parts of the world especially processed coffee (mainly cheap instant coffee). If your customers buys instant coffee, they could buy from India as we do supply green coffee beans to two instant coffee plants in India. It is certain that Vietnam only exports green (raw) coffee beans to other coffee reexporters such as Germany, USA and India. Although Vietnam is currently a coffee giant of the world, 95% of its coffee export are green coffee. The main drawback of Vietnam coffee is marketing. However, we now pay much more efforts on marketing and producing processed coffees (roasted beans and instant coffees). But I think not many local roasters over here try to understand the world's local tastes in a serious way. And we, of course, need to keep continuous efforts.

### I believe that Vietnam produce more coffee than India. Actually Vietnam produce the most ROBUSTA COFFEE in the world. Your country produce more than twice of Robusta than Brazil and more than 7 times of India. HOWEVER, India Robusta pricing is double of your country Robusta pricing. Sorry to say, but India has much better Robusta coffee quality which mostly are being used for espresso blend around the world ###

For your explanation on geisha, I am really being convinced. Now I understand why coffeeforums.com is very famous. You are, actually, a coffee expert.

### thanks for kind words. I am still learning, but since I work in coffee origin (as exporter, farm owner...etc), I can obtain a lot more info than other people ###

It is very exciting that in Japan there are many Geisha. To some extent, geisha coffee and Japanese Geisha share many similarities. They are beautiful (or charming aromas), difficult to flirt (or difficult to grow). In Vietnam, we don't have geisha (both coffee and geisha artist). For geisha artist, in Vietnam, we have 'a dao' (aka in Vietnamese 'ả đào'). The a dao often performs their music in front of royal families or upper class. I am thinking of growing geisha coffee in Vietnam someday. As in Vietnam, we have Langbian mountains in the Central Highlands, which have a height of 2,163m (~7,096 feet) above sea level with high rainfall and big gaps of temperature btw day vs night, can be very suitable for growing Geisha.

### regarding Geisha, you have compared it very well. it is like having 20 years younger Miss Universe wife or mistress. it costs so much to maintain the life style of the young wife/mistress (for getish tree, 3 to 5 times fertilization than normal coffee trees), they spends your money like crazy in shopping... (Geisha trees need all kind of treatment to avoid "rust", insects, and coffee diseases which cost an arm and a leg) and they do not really put out much at night (ha ha ha) (like Geisha tree that produce only 1/3 of normal coffee tree produce). Those pretty mistress spends so much time and money just to make themselves pretty.. (Geisha bean processing (wet and dry mill), it is not a normal processing. you have to be perfect on everything, fermentation, sorting, dry mill, packing...etc more than 3 times of cost than normal coffee). There you have it,, ha ha ha.. Also, even though you might have the right soil and altitude, you must hire someone who knows how to grow AND PROCESS Geisha beans... ###


You see, 100 lbs for US $35,000 is a very big deal. Not only Gigi but also I can give it a try.

The price of bulk green robusta in Vietnam today is at around US $1.6 per kg (or $1,600/ Metric ton). That is $35,000 can buy 21.875 Metric ton (or 21,875 kilogram) of green robusta. Wow:decaf:

### 100 lbs for $35K? I am not sure what you are referring to. in USA, one pound of Panama Esmeralda Geisha / Roasted is selling between $80 to $110 range. in my case, I sell one lb of green Geisha beans at $10 (Farm El Zapote) and $17 per pound from Farm Las Rosas currently.

some of the members might think this Geisha pricing is super high, well yes, it is compared to other micro lots, mostly ranging from $3 to $5 per pound, but www.ninetypluscoffee.com in Panama sells their lowest grade Geisha at $40 per pound ! Also, I heard from my Australia customer who is also Ninetyplus customer that Jas Caffe in China had bought close to one million and a half of ninetyplus Geisha coffee last year. But honestly, other countries are struggling to sell their coffee due to such high pricing.

BTW, I have been cupping Geisha with most of my customers. they are that good, believe it or not. Geisha is not like JBM, Kona or even Luwak. it is not just hype. it is THAT good ####

 

[wscafe]

If I am not mistaken, your post on 25th Dec 2015 showed: "Footnote : Esmeralda farm in Panama sold 100 lbs of 2013 SCAP (Best of Panama Auction) at $35,000.00". That is why I mentioned 100lbs for $35,000.00. Is there any misunderstanding here? You know, some kinds of ginseng in Asia do have a super high price.

I do agree with you on robusta quality of Vietnam vs India. I remember that in a coffee taste report of ICO which I used to read, the result of Indian robusta gets higher points than the one from Vietnam. I think that is the story of quality of Vietnam. The country can do it better. But it seems they love focusing on cheap prices and quantity. Not only coffee, our rices and peppers are also considered low quality by foreign buyers. I hope that we will change this attitude soon.

I strongly believe that Vietnam coffee will improve its quality. In fact, we are changing it but in a slow progress. Some of our partners are building organic coffee farms which are belived to contribute higher quality coffee. Not only that, the country is expanding arabica cultivation to the Northern mountainous provinces which promise to boost its coffee quality. Just wait for Vietnam, mate. As the country has just come back to the coffee world for several decades.

 

[ensoluna]

yeah, I remember that. that lot from esmeralda was the highest auction sold EVER. so we can not really count that as "normal price of Geisha coffee". In my opinion, Auction coffee sales do not really reflect the real coffee pricing. Anyway, thanks for reminding me.

I am 100% certain that Vietnam coffee quality will improve.
Vietnam became a coffee super power in last 30 years, or maybe less than that.
that means Vietnam has the man power, infrastructure and Gov't support to be better in no time.

By the way, Coffee being grown Organic has NOTHING to do with coffee quality. It is just huge miss-guided marketing tactic from big coffee corporation.
I have put out so many threads about this matter.
if you can research it from this forum (if they did not get deleted before), then, you will know what exactly Organic coffee means. (same for Fairtrade, rainforest..etc)

or if you have any questions about this, just let me know.
thanks

 

[wscafe]

This is the first time I heard that organic is just like a marketing trick, Ensoluna. You know, here in Vietnam today, people are talking about organic food day by day. I will look more on your posts on organic coffee and see the reason. However, some other certified coffee practices such as 4C, UTZ, Fairtrade and Rainforest alliance, ..., some of our farmers from Chieng Ban and Da Lat told me that the farmers are not following them strictly.

 

[Mr.Peaberry]

..., some of our farmers from Chieng Ban and Da Lat told me that the farmers are not following them strictly.

This is exactly the issue at hand. Poor farmers can't afford pesticides, and by default adhere to organic farming methods...nor can they afford the certification or allotment certificates, so their coffee cannot use the "recognized" Certified Organic trademark...despite that it is exactly what one would expect to get when purchasing Certified Organic coffee. On the other side of the equation, because the system is imperfect, it is possible for a farmer using pesticides to sell their harvest to farms/coops with excess Certified Organic certificates. The element of greed ensures that where there is an opportunity to profit, these loopholes are exploited. It would be naive to think otherwise. As in any other industry, alliances develop and some organic growers are shut out of the "good ol' boy" network. In many ways, as Alex suggests, the system falls apart on some level, and becomes a vehicle for rewarding a few insiders while failing to guarantee that the product actually delivered to the consumer lives up to its Certified Organic pedigree.

 

[ensoluna]

let me tell you the true story about Organic coffee/farm.

couple of days ago, I posted some photos of our farm here, Finca Santa Maria. that farm was owned by Daniel, my partner, even before we both became partners.
When he first bought the farm 8 years ago, he was persuaded by FTO organization that he should turn his farm to Organic in order to sell his coffee at higher pricing.

First, he did not know much about coffee farming, even though he had his own roasting business (very small) and his own small coffee shop.
so, he decided to go ahead with this, without fully analyzing whats involved.

But as a poor farmer, you have to realize that buying organic fertilizers are 3 times more expensive than Chemical fertilizers.
Also, the real problem is that if you use organics, your coffee production goes down by 25% up to 40%.
And in order to kill insects and other coffee diseases, he also has to use certified "chemicals" which are 3 to 4 times more expensive.

Furthermore, your farm must be completely organic FOR 3 YEARS in order to apply for the Organic certificate.

To make the long story short, by second year, he ran out of his money completely due to high fertilizer/chemical..etc expense plus 30% less coffee production.

So, he had to quit the farming and stop investing money into it. and he had to look for other opportunities to make coffee business.

THAT WAS WHEN I CAME INTO PICTURE. Since he knew some coffee business and I knew about international marketing, we decided to become partners and form our company, Ensoluna S.A. Green coffee exporting company.

Going back to the farm story, as you can see in our previous photos of our farm, it is absolute mess. It could be great for Jungle or hunting small animals, but as a real coffee farm, probably I give 2 out of 10, 10 being a greatly run coffee farm, like Finca Colombia in Antigua which we represent. (already put some photos here last week)

Since Daniel kind of abandoned (not investing in fertilizing, trimming, planting, cleaning...etc which has to be done every single year after harvesting) due to Organic disaster, from this year, we (Ensoluna company) decided to invest some money into our own farm to get it back to shape.

There you go. there is the story of Organic farm/coffee. 90% of Guatemala farms are low income poor farms. it is very difficult to meet their requirement which are as stupid as THE SEPARATE BATHROOM for rainforest, but so much corruption everywhere, so the only losers are the poor farmers.

PS: have you ever heard of Organic Geisha? Organic Mokka? and other very expensive coffee varietals with Organic name on it? you will have very very tough time fining one. Because if you use organic, the production goes down so much. Geisha is already 1/3 of normal coffee tree production. Can you imagine how little it will produce if you use Organic for Geisha? That is the reason. IT IS NOT ABOUT HEALTH OR SAFETY. It is about how big corporation can be richer by confusing consumers.

 

[Mr.Peaberry]

...so there you have it...a real life experience of what it is to become Organic. Nothing is easy for the small guy, it seems...

 

[wscafe]

let me tell you the true story about Organic coffee/farm.

couple of days ago, I posted some photos of our farm here, Finca Santa Maria. that farm was owned by Daniel, my partner, even before we both became partners.
When he first bought the farm 8 years ago, he was persuaded by FTO organization that he should turn his farm to Organic in order to sell his coffee at higher pricing.

First, he did not know much about coffee farming, even though he had his own roasting business (very small) and his own small coffee shop.
so, he decided to go ahead with this, without fully analyzing whats involved.

But as a poor farmer, you have to realize that buying organic fertilizers are 3 times more expensive than Chemical fertilizers.
Also, the real problem is that if you use organics, your coffee production goes down by 25% up to 40%.
And in order to kill insects and other coffee diseases, he also has to use certified "chemicals" which are 3 to 4 times more expensive.

Furthermore, your farm must be completely organic FOR 3 YEARS in order to apply for the Organic certificate.

To make the long story short, by second year, he ran out of his money completely due to high fertilizer/chemical..etc expense plus 30% less coffee production.

So, he had to quit the farming and stop investing money into it. and he had to look for other opportunities to make coffee business.

THAT WAS WHEN I CAME INTO PICTURE. Since he knew some coffee business and I knew about international marketing, we decided to become partners and form our company, Ensoluna S.A. Green coffee exporting company.

Going back to the farm story, as you can see in our previous photos of our farm, it is absolute mess. It could be great for Jungle or hunting small animals, but as a real coffee farm, probably I give 2 out of 10, 10 being a greatly run coffee farm, like Finca Colombia in Antigua which we represent. (already put some photos here last week)

Since Daniel kind of abandoned (not investing in fertilizing, trimming, planting, cleaning...etc which has to be done every single year after harvesting) due to Organic disaster, from this year, we (Ensoluna company) decided to invest some money into our own farm to get it back to shape.

There you go. there is the story of Organic farm/coffee. 90% of Guatemala farms are low income poor farms. it is very difficult to meet their requirement which are as stupid as THE SEPARATE BATHROOM for rainforest, but so much corruption everywhere, so the only losers are the poor farmers.

PS: have you ever heard of Organic Geisha? Organic Mokka? and other very expensive coffee varietals with Organic name on it? you will have very very tough time fining one. Because if you use organic, the production goes down so much. Geisha is already 1/3 of normal coffee tree production. Can you imagine how little it will produce if you use Organic for Geisha? That is the reason. IT IS NOT ABOUT HEALTH OR SAFETY. It is about how big corporation can be richer by confusing consumers.

I don't agree with you, Ensoluna. As I understand your explanation, poor farmers are buying expensive materials (fertilizers, etc.) from big corps and they earn not much from their organic coffee as the volume is down and their reputation is not good enough, corruption, etc. I think the main problem here could be global awareness for organic coffee is not large enough until now. Thus, there are not many suppliers/producers for organic materials to penetrate the market. When global demand for organic increases, more new competitors come in, the price could be less expensive and the cost of organic production will be decreased. As a result, organic coffee will be more popular as Organic coffee itself is good for environment and good for sustainable development.

 

[javanize.me]

I believe that Ensoluna is right. The problem is more complex than market penetration. People are already interested in Organic, but mostly when it touch GMO or pesticide. I don't think most people think too much about fertilizer, but only to what is left when you ingest the product.

Now, organic certification has been abused and is often more a scheme to abuse farmer to pay a premium to be in the club of organic with the hope to make more money. So basically, the Organic certification are only taking a share in advance not on the result of the production of farmer.

To work, an organic certification should be a non-profit organization organized around a cooperative that produce what is necessary for the member to grow organic at a low cost price. So any poor folk farming in an emergent country who farm organic because they don't have a choice should be certified for free and join the cooperative for free and benefit the advantage and participate to the well being of that cooperative.