jlyon10
Super Moderator
green coffee
Is there some way you could tell if green coffee was frozen? I don't think it would be as good.
Is there some way you could tell if green coffee was frozen? I don't think it would be as good.
frozen beans?
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Davec
New member
Re: green coffee
I doubt it, although some roasters (not roasters as in probat, but roasters as in Topher) have devices to check the Humidity of the coffee and if freezing damages the cellular structure of the bean, you might find the coffee once thawed, settles at a different level of humidity than usual.
jlyon10 said:
I doubt it, although some roasters (not roasters as in probat, but roasters as in Topher) have devices to check the Humidity of the coffee and if freezing damages the cellular structure of the bean, you might find the coffee once thawed, settles at a different level of humidity than usual.
ElPugDiablo
New member
Freezing may not be as bad as you think. Someone did a study on freezing roasted coffee in the the latest copy of Roast Magazine and the conclusion is it is a viable way to prolong coffee shelf life. I think the best way is to experiment it yourself and see if you agree or disagree with the article.
As far as freezing green beans, one of the foremost coffee roasters re-pack his green beans and deep freezes them. Below is his link.
http://www.terroircoffee.com/content/view/144/28/
As far as freezing green beans, one of the foremost coffee roasters re-pack his green beans and deep freezes them. Below is his link.
http://www.terroircoffee.com/content/view/144/28/
CafeBlue
New member
Fresh coffee rant
Freezing coffee - any food - is a viable way to extend usable foodsafe shelf-life.
Freezing is NOT a viable way to prolong FRESHNESS.
Experiment yourself, if you do not believe me. Even ice cubes and ice cream do not benefit from extended freezing nor extremely cold freezing. Simply watch the ice in your freezer wither and begin to taste off. Taste Ben & Jerry's at the Vermont factory, and compare the fresh batch to their flash-frozen product from the grocery/distribution chain.
WHY would one even want to extend shelf life of a product that is easy to buy fresh roasted and tastes best fresh-roasted and fresh-ground and fresh brewed? What advantage do you imagine from stocking a month/6 months or more of coffee? Do you buy a month's worth of bread, croissants, fruit, vegetables, milk????
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!
FRESH COFFEE TASTES BETTER.
Please do not take offense Diablo, I know YOU are smarter than this suggests. How many other people are just living in denial?ElPugDiablo said:
Freezing coffee - any food - is a viable way to extend usable foodsafe shelf-life.
Freezing is NOT a viable way to prolong FRESHNESS.
Experiment yourself, if you do not believe me. Even ice cubes and ice cream do not benefit from extended freezing nor extremely cold freezing. Simply watch the ice in your freezer wither and begin to taste off. Taste Ben & Jerry's at the Vermont factory, and compare the fresh batch to their flash-frozen product from the grocery/distribution chain.
WHY would one even want to extend shelf life of a product that is easy to buy fresh roasted and tastes best fresh-roasted and fresh-ground and fresh brewed? What advantage do you imagine from stocking a month/6 months or more of coffee? Do you buy a month's worth of bread, croissants, fruit, vegetables, milk????
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!
FRESH COFFEE TASTES BETTER.
CafeBlue
New member
green
By the way, green coffee is best stored in climate controlled conditions. However it ships via container box around the world all through the seasons and via freight truck every day. During transit, it is often exposed to extreme conditions. Frozen green is not necessarily significantly harmful - unlike fresh roasted.
By the way, green coffee is best stored in climate controlled conditions. However it ships via container box around the world all through the seasons and via freight truck every day. During transit, it is often exposed to extreme conditions. Frozen green is not necessarily significantly harmful - unlike fresh roasted.
Davec
New member
ElPugDiablo said:
Hmm....I suppose Birds Eye might say the same thing about their frozen foods...
In the UK we have supermarkets and they sell tomatoes, every year these tomatoes get rounder, redder and more perfect, uniform size, shape, blemish free and great keeping qualities.....but they don't taste good and my 4 year old son won't eat them (he wouldn't eat them when he was 2 or 3 either!). We thought at first, "well he just doesn't like tomatoes".
However every year I grow tomatoes in the greenhouse, no pesticides, no chemicals, a limited amount of tomatoe fertiliser, the plants are not forced in any way. They are uneven in size, sometimes not as red, certainly not blemish free and don't keep well once picked......but each year my son and daughter raid the greenhouse and eat all the tomatoes from the vine, the red ones, the not so red ones, even the not very red ones. I asked them why they won't eat the other tomatoes from the supermarket...the reply "they are not tomatoes, they don't taste good"
we all know instinctively that the things that supermarkets do is not good for food, fresh foods like vegetables etc.. suffer most from this. It does give us a product with a long shelf life, uniform size, shape etc.., but the taste is crap. The tomatoes are picked when green, forced to grow too fast, "ripened"..sorry turned red with ethylene gas etc..
It seems that with foods, the older they get, the less good they taste, no matter how you store them. I am prehaps cynical in my old age, but a lot of information we get given is generated by businesses needs to make money. The motor industry, the food industry, the fashion industry....but mabye the coffee industry is different to every other industry?
With foods like coffee I don't believe there is any substitute for freshness.
ElPugDiablo
New member
CafeBlue, I am not offended. Neither the article in Roast Magazine nor I suggest buying large quantity of roasted beans and freezing the unused portion for months. In bold is the article's summary: I have always been a supporter of the "buy and use coffee more frequently" camp, however, I won't hesitate to support coffee consumers who stick their coffee in the freezer. The cup quality of the frozen coffees was pleasantly surprising. It's an easy experiment and I challenge other roasters to try it. That way, when customers ask (and you know they will), "how should I store my coffee?" you can answer without hesitation. My coffees are bagged in one way valve bags with roast date and best use by date (two weeks). If within the two weeks period, freezing the beans is better than other storing methods, I see nothing wrong with suggesting it. I have yet to experiment with it. But won't dismiss it out of hand.
Davec, Terroir Coffee is a coffee roaster, not a green bean seller. Other than taking meticulous care of raw ingredients Terroir gains no benefit from freezing beans. The owner George Howell made a good sum of money when he sold Coffee Connections to Starbucks. He started Terroir not because he wants to make more money, but because of his love and passion for coffee. He re-bags and deep freezes his beans because through experimentations he believes this is the best way to preserve green beans and therefore the best roasted coffee, not because by freezing them, they can look like supermarket vegetables. If you are on holiday in the US, I strongly recommend pencil in Acton Massachusetts for a coffee tour of Terroir Coffee. I can say with 100% certainty that he is all substance and no gimmick. I know I sounded like a Terroir fanatic, and I am, but only after I tasted his coffee multiple times.
Davec, Terroir Coffee is a coffee roaster, not a green bean seller. Other than taking meticulous care of raw ingredients Terroir gains no benefit from freezing beans. The owner George Howell made a good sum of money when he sold Coffee Connections to Starbucks. He started Terroir not because he wants to make more money, but because of his love and passion for coffee. He re-bags and deep freezes his beans because through experimentations he believes this is the best way to preserve green beans and therefore the best roasted coffee, not because by freezing them, they can look like supermarket vegetables. If you are on holiday in the US, I strongly recommend pencil in Acton Massachusetts for a coffee tour of Terroir Coffee. I can say with 100% certainty that he is all substance and no gimmick. I know I sounded like a Terroir fanatic, and I am, but only after I tasted his coffee multiple times.
AJPRATT
New member
ElPugDiablo: Saw the same article... thought it was very interesting and that the writer was pretty brave and a little crazy for even cupping some of the beans stored. Blechk! Can't even imagine some of it. I might freeze some coffee to use in a baking recipe later on. I mean, nothing beats fresh, but I have seen and heard of much worse being done to coffee than it going in the freezer.
And, IMHO, I think frozen coffee is a great thing to serve to the inlaws.
And, IMHO, I think frozen coffee is a great thing to serve to the inlaws.
CITIPERK
New member
Never store beans in the freezer!
Never store beans or ground coffee in the freezer! Keep in the coolest part of your home away from other food. Coffee soaks up aromas from other food items adjacent and/or aromas in your fridge.
Never store beans or ground coffee in the freezer! Keep in the coolest part of your home away from other food. Coffee soaks up aromas from other food items adjacent and/or aromas in your fridge.
brewer3401
New member
I'm new but like fresh coffee.
Before roasting, I'd buy out of NY.
Upon receipt, I would immediately put in ball jars and put a vacuum on them.
I've noticed even after 4+ weeks, the roasted coffee still had tremendous aroma, and the taste was great too.
I'm sure O2 is what is staling the beans.
I store hops (I brew beer) the same way, but also in the freezer. I leave the roasted beans at room temps.
Before roasting, I'd buy out of NY.
Upon receipt, I would immediately put in ball jars and put a vacuum on them.
I've noticed even after 4+ weeks, the roasted coffee still had tremendous aroma, and the taste was great too.
I'm sure O2 is what is staling the beans.
I store hops (I brew beer) the same way, but also in the freezer. I leave the roasted beans at room temps.
davidsbiscotti
New member
frozen beans
The New England Culinary Institute (NECI) in Vermont holds a short class on roasting coffee beans. They teach that on a molecular level, coffee bean cells expand and rupture when frozen. Freshness is sacrificed once cellular walls become ruptured. So, don't freeze your coffee beans, if you're as finicky as you want people to think you are. :lol:
The New England Culinary Institute (NECI) in Vermont holds a short class on roasting coffee beans. They teach that on a molecular level, coffee bean cells expand and rupture when frozen. Freshness is sacrificed once cellular walls become ruptured. So, don't freeze your coffee beans, if you're as finicky as you want people to think you are. :lol:
AJPRATT
New member
Re: frozen beans
Like I said, frozen beans are great to serve to the inlaws!! LOL :lol: Well, my inlaws anyway.
davidsbiscotti said:
Like I said, frozen beans are great to serve to the inlaws!! LOL :lol: Well, my inlaws anyway.
Davec
New member
Re: frozen beans
My understanding of cellular biology has always been that the water within the cell (when frozen slowly) forms sharp crystals that puncture the cell walls and hence the relative spoilage of food when thawed.
Commercial freezing is extreemely fast and not achievable without specialized equipment.
That said the himidity content of coffee is quite low and this rupturing of cells may not be a problem (i'm not sure though). Definitely the fats in the beans will still age. Interestigly I liken the coffee bean to a nut, and freezing those doesn't seem hugely succesful.
davidsbiscotti said:
My understanding of cellular biology has always been that the water within the cell (when frozen slowly) forms sharp crystals that puncture the cell walls and hence the relative spoilage of food when thawed.
Commercial freezing is extreemely fast and not achievable without specialized equipment.
That said the himidity content of coffee is quite low and this rupturing of cells may not be a problem (i'm not sure though). Definitely the fats in the beans will still age. Interestigly I liken the coffee bean to a nut, and freezing those doesn't seem hugely succesful.
davidsbiscotti
New member
Re: frozen beans
By "commercial freezing" are you referring to "flash freezing" (Invented by Clarence Birdseye of Birdseye Foods)? If so, are you suggesting that this is preferential to a slow freeze?
Davec said:
By "commercial freezing" are you referring to "flash freezing" (Invented by Clarence Birdseye of Birdseye Foods)? If so, are you suggesting that this is preferential to a slow freeze?
ElPugDiablo
New member
Re: frozen beans
It is very simple to proof or refute this idea. Buy a bag of fresh roasted coffee, split them into two well wrapped bags, put one in the freezer and put the other one in dark cool corner. After two weeks, try them side by side and decide for yourself.
Actually bean cells expand and rupture when roasted. Compare a handful of unroasted green to a roasted beans, especially those went pass second crack. You will see that roasted beans are twice as large as unroasted beans. In regard to freshness and storage, there are two things that make good coffee taste bad. The first one is oxidation. Coffee goes stale because of interaction between coffee oil and air, light, heat and humidity. This is why coffee comes in one way valve bag. The one way valve allows coffee to pass CO2 out of the bag but blocks air to interact with coffee. Of course as users open up the bag, he/she exposes coffee to air and the oxidation process is commenced. The solution to oxidation is use up the bean as soon as possible, and try to keep the exposure to a minimum by folding the bag to minimize air within the bag. There are even gadgets to vacuum out the air. The second one is lost of flavor and aroma. Unfortunately as coffee pass CO2 it losses flavor and aroma, there is no packaging or storage can prevent that. However, my speculation is that freezing coffee slows down this process of losing flavor and aroma. When discussing freezing roasted coffee, it is important to know that freshness, therefore using up the coffee as soon as after roasting is still the most important factor. However, during this short duration freezing beans in well wrapped foil bag is no without foundation. It is base on a very simple premise namely chemical reactions slow down at low temperature.davidsbiscotti said:
It is very simple to proof or refute this idea. Buy a bag of fresh roasted coffee, split them into two well wrapped bags, put one in the freezer and put the other one in dark cool corner. After two weeks, try them side by side and decide for yourself.
