shadow745
Well-known member
Would like to add that it's easy to believe you have reached the pinnacle in espresso once you MAX out home equipment. But to a degree the quality of the spro goes up as the quality of the equipment goes up.
Best Espresso machine under $1k
- Thread starter bomadian
- Start date
tinninches
New member
^^^This. Couldn't agree more. I'm going to dabble in the espresso world I believe around this time next year (have 2 cruises, 3 vacations, and an engagement to pay-off first, lol)
alphawave7
New member
Quality espresso at home has the potential to keep you flat broke. The key is to works towards a point in balancing your equipment and funds with what your palate can actually detect. Once that point is reached, you've reached Shadow's 'pinnacle', but only so long as your palate DOESN'T detect something better! LOL! Then the equipment lust starts anew...it's a journey..and very expensive one at that. 
alsterling
Member
Consider moving from single boiler to HX...?
Bomadian... 'seems like everyone's lookin' for great espresso setup "under" a grand..... and I can't say I'd blame you or anyone else.
My first machine was a Krups that my wife and I bought in the kitchen department at May Co. way back in the mid 80's. In 2005 I pulled it out of the closet, and made something close to an espresso shot, that then became part of a poor, but drinkable cappuccino. But it got me curious about what it would take to make a decent drink. And it was from there that I did my investigating. I ended up buying a refurb'd Gaggia Super-Auto from Whole Latte Love, turned it in for a full refund within a couple weeks, and luckily bought an Expobar Pulsar.
Unfortunately, I didn't understand that the Cuisinart grinder I got at Costco was my problem. After chatting with Whole Latte one more time, I bought the Gaggia MDF. For the next half year, more or less, I enjoyed great espresso. The MDF class grinder was the key, as it was capable of producing a consistent grind for espresso brewing. Drip and pourover brewing, in my opinion, is a bit more forgiving. But espresso brewing is not. It's like operating and driving the Ferrari of coffee gear. You really have to address a number of issues. And the MDF, as well as a few other burr grinders in the $200-$300 range address that issue. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS or BARGAINS with GRINDERS.
While I've been out of the loop for awhile now, the absolute minimum machine for home espresso has been the Rancilia Silvia. It's a single boiler machine, but with finesse, you can get great results. But in my humble opinion, it's worth going from the top of the line "single boiler" to a "bottom of the line" Heat Exchanger machine, (commonly referred to as "HX") In that class. And the Expobar used to be that machine. I bought mine in '05, on sale, for $650, and got the MDF for $200. If you can replicate that purchase in used, then I'd say go for it immediately. That, in my opinion, is the "minimum level for serious home espresso."
Take heed of what Zin1953 shared with the Salvatore. I've spoken to this firm, and while I doubt there are many used units out there, the long warranty is impressive. IndianaTom and I shared the near same experience, and from first hand experience, I can heartily recommend the Expobar coupled with an MDF, Rocky, or any burr-grinder in the same class. Most espresso machines in this class will certainly have a vibrating pump with a built-in reservoir. That's not a problem. There are ways to increase the capacity of the reservoir capacity with exterior tanks and feed lines.
So in summary, I'd say consider moving from single boiler. Go looking for a well-taken-care-of HX machine and, if you dont' have one now or want to upgrade, a competent grinder. With respect to all those who have learned how to "work their gear".... I emphasize that even the simplist of espresso machines, and with coffee brewing knowledge, will allow you to make good to great espresso. However, that "fresh bean and competent grinder issue", well, that doesn't seem to be as flexible. I'm certainly presuming you've got that covered.
By alsterling at 2011-03-26
Bomadian... 'seems like everyone's lookin' for great espresso setup "under" a grand..... and I can't say I'd blame you or anyone else.
My first machine was a Krups that my wife and I bought in the kitchen department at May Co. way back in the mid 80's. In 2005 I pulled it out of the closet, and made something close to an espresso shot, that then became part of a poor, but drinkable cappuccino. But it got me curious about what it would take to make a decent drink. And it was from there that I did my investigating. I ended up buying a refurb'd Gaggia Super-Auto from Whole Latte Love, turned it in for a full refund within a couple weeks, and luckily bought an Expobar Pulsar.
Unfortunately, I didn't understand that the Cuisinart grinder I got at Costco was my problem. After chatting with Whole Latte one more time, I bought the Gaggia MDF. For the next half year, more or less, I enjoyed great espresso. The MDF class grinder was the key, as it was capable of producing a consistent grind for espresso brewing. Drip and pourover brewing, in my opinion, is a bit more forgiving. But espresso brewing is not. It's like operating and driving the Ferrari of coffee gear. You really have to address a number of issues. And the MDF, as well as a few other burr grinders in the $200-$300 range address that issue. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS or BARGAINS with GRINDERS.
While I've been out of the loop for awhile now, the absolute minimum machine for home espresso has been the Rancilia Silvia. It's a single boiler machine, but with finesse, you can get great results. But in my humble opinion, it's worth going from the top of the line "single boiler" to a "bottom of the line" Heat Exchanger machine, (commonly referred to as "HX") In that class. And the Expobar used to be that machine. I bought mine in '05, on sale, for $650, and got the MDF for $200. If you can replicate that purchase in used, then I'd say go for it immediately. That, in my opinion, is the "minimum level for serious home espresso."
Take heed of what Zin1953 shared with the Salvatore. I've spoken to this firm, and while I doubt there are many used units out there, the long warranty is impressive. IndianaTom and I shared the near same experience, and from first hand experience, I can heartily recommend the Expobar coupled with an MDF, Rocky, or any burr-grinder in the same class. Most espresso machines in this class will certainly have a vibrating pump with a built-in reservoir. That's not a problem. There are ways to increase the capacity of the reservoir capacity with exterior tanks and feed lines.
So in summary, I'd say consider moving from single boiler. Go looking for a well-taken-care-of HX machine and, if you dont' have one now or want to upgrade, a competent grinder. With respect to all those who have learned how to "work their gear".... I emphasize that even the simplist of espresso machines, and with coffee brewing knowledge, will allow you to make good to great espresso. However, that "fresh bean and competent grinder issue", well, that doesn't seem to be as flexible. I'm certainly presuming you've got that covered.
By alsterling at 2011-03-26
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ElPugDiablo
New member
Get a used commercial grinder such as Mazzer mini or Mazzer super jolly from e-bay first. If you are lucky you can get one for around $200 ~ $300. You can read up on homebarista.com about other grinders people are buying. You might need to change the burr and beautify it, but it will last you a life time. A customer of my has a Silvia and Rocky set up until I sold my old Mazzer Major to him. He couldn't believe how much better he is pulling his shots now. You probably will end up north of 1K though.
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ron45
New member
I just want to second, or third maybe, the grinder business. It's probably more important than the machine. Depending on where you live it can be come necessary to adjust the grind to the humidity changes your area undergoes. This demands a grinder with close to 40 or 45 settings. You could maybe get by with fewer if the machine only grinds espresso and 10 or 15 detents The small increments are necessary to make the kind of adjustments between different roasts of coffee or as I said, the weather. The Rancillio I have goes from course french press to face power grind for turkish coffee.
With used espresso machines you need to know what kind of water was used and how long. You don't want to be learning about...... well, it would be a good way, to learn about your machine to have to disassemble it for descaling. They aren't too complex if you don't get some automatic robot machine. There is a learning curve to get to a consistent brewing results. It is the grinder again that allows you to dial in your ideal double shot. Does anyone really bother with single shots?
The conventional wisdom when I began the quest was, you strive to learn to tamp at a constant and run the brew cycle for a constant period of time and the variable is the grind. This must be adjusted in fine increments or you can't get it right if the bean or the weather changes. Here in the mountain southwest I've only had to adjust for humidity once or twice. Usually it's a different roast that makes it necessary around here.
Ron
With used espresso machines you need to know what kind of water was used and how long. You don't want to be learning about...... well, it would be a good way, to learn about your machine to have to disassemble it for descaling. They aren't too complex if you don't get some automatic robot machine. There is a learning curve to get to a consistent brewing results. It is the grinder again that allows you to dial in your ideal double shot. Does anyone really bother with single shots?
The conventional wisdom when I began the quest was, you strive to learn to tamp at a constant and run the brew cycle for a constant period of time and the variable is the grind. This must be adjusted in fine increments or you can't get it right if the bean or the weather changes. Here in the mountain southwest I've only had to adjust for humidity once or twice. Usually it's a different roast that makes it necessary around here.
Ron
shadow745
Well-known member
Actually for espresso a stepless grinder is more beneficial. If a grinder is to be multi-purpose, a stepped grinder will work and make it easier to find previous settings.
Temperature/humidity is highly misunderstood for espresso. In a home setting or most commercial operations it's cake to keep dialed in. But our operation is mobile and some days I don't have to touch the grind setting. Other days I'm making over a dozen changes throughout the day. I try to keep the internal temperature of the van in the mid 70s or less and humidity in the 40-80% range. Here in NC we may start out with a morning temp. of 35/high humidity and end up hitting 70 degrees and lower humidity. Days like that are what demands constant changes to keep things dialed in just right.
Ron45, on a side note I totally agree with you on tearing into a machine not only for maintenance, but also for the learning experience to know how things work internally. Only downside can be finding parts needed (gaskets, o-rings, etc) for some of the more rare machines when you do tear it down. Some parts can't be reused and must be replaced.
Temperature/humidity is highly misunderstood for espresso. In a home setting or most commercial operations it's cake to keep dialed in. But our operation is mobile and some days I don't have to touch the grind setting. Other days I'm making over a dozen changes throughout the day. I try to keep the internal temperature of the van in the mid 70s or less and humidity in the 40-80% range. Here in NC we may start out with a morning temp. of 35/high humidity and end up hitting 70 degrees and lower humidity. Days like that are what demands constant changes to keep things dialed in just right.
Ron45, on a side note I totally agree with you on tearing into a machine not only for maintenance, but also for the learning experience to know how things work internally. Only downside can be finding parts needed (gaskets, o-rings, etc) for some of the more rare machines when you do tear it down. Some parts can't be reused and must be replaced.
alsterling
Member
I've seen the prices rise on both new and used gear over the last two years. And prior even after buying my Macap, I tried finding used grinders on Ebay and Craigs List with no luck. (maybe bad timing?) I'm always open to buying a piece of good gear if it's reasonable. I've never owned the Silvia, but it's been the top end of single boiler machines for a while now. I'd agree with ElPug, in that a used commercial grade grinder will always be better than a new pro-sumer; this assuming the machine is in prime shape. I'd be prepared for replacing the burrs on any used machine, no matter what you're told. You can go to www.espressoparts.com or www.chriscoffee.com for parts pricing. Assume the worst, hope for the best.
I also saw www.1stincoffee.com offering a new Rancilia set; Silvia and Rocky, for about $1k new. (see their ad-photo below) Although, as was said about grinders, the jump from the $250-350 range MDF or Rocky grinders to even a junior commercial grinder ($750?) as offered by Macap or Mazzer is highly recommended if you can do it. But coming from a Krups machine, the Rancilia twin set will certainly give you the "volume and speed" in making espresso-milk drinks, and hits that $1k mark.... but a tiny bit over, not under. (maybe you can negotiate?)
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shadow745
Well-known member
If you're gonna recommend a used commercial grinder, might as well recommend a used 1 group commercial espresso machine. Having consistent brew temperature/pressure is equally important as consistent grind quality.
IMO pairing a commercial grinder with a true home machine is still bottlenecking your end result.
Never owned a Silvia either, but wouldn't based on all the negatives I've read/heard about them. There are better machines for less money. Same goes for the Rocky.
IMO pairing a commercial grinder with a true home machine is still bottlenecking your end result.
Never owned a Silvia either, but wouldn't based on all the negatives I've read/heard about them. There are better machines for less money. Same goes for the Rocky.
alphawave7
New member
Won't argue that there may be better machines for less money (although examples are always welcome!) but the negatives you've read/heard about remind me of a common analogy often used wrt espresso machines: Silvia is like learning to drive in a cranky manual stickshift, with no power brakes or power steering. Temp-surfing her is truly a fully-manual experience, and it's not suited to those who prefer consistency (automatic, power everything). Trade-offs and budget are forever the battle in choosing espresso equipment, for the first-timer, AND the upgrader.
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