Which Saeco to go for? with which grinder?

[malmsteen]

Hi,

I'm new to the espresso making world...just have been buying Starbucks coffee and now wanting to try making myself. Having said that I'm looking for a decent machine for home use, entry level that will last long until I get really good at making espresso/latte/capuccino.

I came across one of the Saeco models which my friend recommended, it's Saeco Aroma.
I was wondering if this is a good unit. (I noticed black stainless and silver stainless and the price difference was quite big like $80, silver one being more expensive but same material, should I go for silver?) My main concern is the frother being plastic. I've seen cheaper models like Cuisinart or Delonghi with stainless frother and wondering if plastic is ok.

Sorry for the long read but there is more!
Well, obviously I'd like to buy a grinder as well, but wondering if Krups GVX2-12 is a good model for making good espresso. Or is Baratza Maestro better?

Here are the links for two products.

http://www.creativecookware.com/espresso_classico.htm
http://www.cayneshousewares.com/product ... t=0&page=1

Yes, they are Canadian websites because I'm in Canada.
I'd really appreciate your help!

 

[shadow745]

It's a pretty decent home model. Does have the proper boiler arrangement and some decent features. Don't worry about the frothing attachment as most are plastic anyway. I personally think they're garbage, only adding too much air to help newbies out a bit. If possible you'd want to take it off and use the bare wand anyway and just rely on technique to get the job done.

That machine does use a pressurized portafilter and that's OK to start out with but will hold you back a bit in terms of better espresso. The portafilter can be modified to make it non-pressurized, but I have no idea if it's worth the effort.

For that price range I'd recommend any of the Gaggia lineup. Have read that Saeco now owns Gaggia, but probably doesn't matter. For the price point they are the best thing out there in terms of performance, features and reliability.

Have also read because of this changeover Gaggia machines now have a stainless boiler. The jury is still out on that one.

That grinder is crap. The Maestro would serve you much better and doesn't cost alot more. Later!

 

[malmsteen]

Oh thanks for your reply. That was very helpful.
Since you suggest Gaggia machine, here is what I found in the similar price range.

http://www.creativecookware.com/gaggia_color.htm

and this one

http://www.creativecookware.com/dose_&_grinder.htm (how is this Cuisinart grinder, Maestro still better?)

It looks though, the Saeco Aroma has stainless steel construction all the way around, but these 2 Gaggia ones have plastic body and the boiler is stainless steel. Gaggia one's got temperature control though..
Which one would you recommend? I'm still leaning towards the Saeco.

 

[shadow745]

Well all espresso machines have temperature control in one form or another. Just different marketing strategies.... I personally don't know too much about the newly designed Gaggia models with the stainless boiler. Brass is considered the ultimate boiler material because of its heat retention and lack of corrosion issues. Problem most had with the original Gaggia lineup was corrosion of the aluminum boiler due to improper water usage. People should realized balanced water is part of the equation, not just something wet.... Anyway, along comes the new stainless boiler system for some of the Gaggias. If I'm not mistaken these boilers are being used in the cheaper models and the older standbys are still using the tried and true aluminum type. The benefit of the aluminum boiler design is that it conducts heat rather quickly and the heating elements are on the outside so there is less of a chance of element damage if things go south, like running the boiler dry. There is a great site you can visit that is strictly for Gaggia owners and they will give you their honest opinions of any Gaggia machine. It is here.... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gaggia/

Comparing the two machines you're interested in.... I'd pick the Gaggia. I'd say they have much better temperature control, a proper nickel plated brass group along with the proper portafilter (nickel plated brass) and non-pressurized 58mm baskets. I know the Saeco might offer stainless exterior, but I doubt it's high grade and can still discolor, scratch and even rust if not cared for. Most people think as long as something is stainless it's protected, but it depends on the grade of stainless. AND I'd rather have a plasticky exterior and have the expense spent on the internal parts than have a nice exterior on the machine and subpar internals.

That new Cuisinart conical burr grinder should be on par with any of the Maestro lineup and similar grinders. Looks like a nice design, but I haven't seen any reviews on it. Later!

 

[malmsteen]

Yes, you are so right on that one.
I think better 'inside' construction would contribute to better espresso that how it looks outside.
Thanks for making me realize that.

So, I'm now looking at machines with 58mm non-pressurized PF, and have narrowed it down to Gaggia Pure, Color, or Dose, and Saeco Nina Bar. I would pick the Gaggia Pure or Color, but according to the link below, it does not make the espresso hot and thick enough.

http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/articles.asp?id=199

Could they be biased? or can you make espresso hotter and thicker with skill? or is it something that depends on the machine?

Would going for Gaggia Pure/Color a good choice? with Maestro grinder.

 

[PinkRose]

Hi "malmsteen"

I visit this thread from time to time to see how you're progressing with your espresso machine choice.

I enjoyed looking at that Seattle Coffee Gear web site, that you posted, that compares different espresso machines. The feature, where you get a description of the machine components when you hover over the headings, is a good one. Like you, I also wonder if the comparisons are biased.

Those of us, who are considering buying an espresso machine for home use, certainly appreciate all of the information posted by everyone in this thread!!

Rose

 

[shadow745]

Yeah I think those "opinions" should be taken with a grain of salt. The temp. in the cup doesn't mean alot, it's the water temp. as it comes out of the grouphead that matters most.

As to which Gaggia to pick, I highly recommend visiting the Gaggia Group site I posted. Lots of Gaggia owners there that will point you in the right direction. Later!

 

[malmsteen]

Rose -
I'm glad that you are finding this thread helpful. I certainly wish this will turn into 'the ultimate home espresso machine under $300' thread. I'm learning a lot and I hope you do too.

Shadow745 -
Thanks so much for your insight. I, as well as others, have found your advice to be helpful and now I know I'm buying the right machine. By doing my own research, I realized I can't get a perfect machine under $300 range (under $400 CAD), since none of them have 3 solenoid thingy...
Well, it'll be my first machine and I'm sure I'd want a higher end machine after several years of use.
I have joined the Yahoo gaggia group you've suggested, and will do more research during the weekend, and I'm going to purchase one early next week. We'll see how things go.
Please, let me know if you have any further advices!

 

[shadow745]

Well it is tough to find a good home machine at that price point. Most people on low budgets have had great results from the Gaggias. My first real semi-auto was (is) a KitchenAid Pro Line, made by Gaggia for KA. It's a really good home machine. I use a lever machine most of the time because it is superb compared to anything else I've used yet.

Don't worry about a few features like the 3-way solenoid valve. They are nice and allow you to pull shots back-to-back because of the instant pressure release, but it does not make the shot any better at all. AND having one in the machine requires a bit more cleaning and maintenance.

My lever machine has no sort of pressure release and it does slow me down a bit, but not a big deal. After each shot I simply place a mug under the portafilter and slowly loosen it until the pressure begins to hiss out. I leave it be for a minute or so, then unlock it, dump the puck and I'm good to go.

Good luck in your quest for great espresso. At least you asked others before buying something you might be disappointed with down the road.

BTW, I know some people say don't waste the money on buying cheaper stuff and working your way up, but I disagree. Why spend $7-800 or more and then discover you might not like espresso that much after all or don't care for the care the equipment demands. I believe if you have a good starter machine like one of the Gaggias it will help you build the basics you'll need to know to master bigger/better things later on. Later!

 

[malmsteen]

Thanks again.
I just came back from the Saeco dealer, and did take a look at various models.
Although Saeco Aroma had stainless steel body construction, I noticed that the PF quality was a lot worse that the ones on Gaggia. I looked at Saeco Aroma and Gaggia Pure, Color, and Dose. The PF on Gaggia was much heavier and non-pressurized 58mm, while Aroma's PF felt like a toy, smaller, and pressurized. I'm definitely going for the Gaggia.
I know that Pure, Color, and Dose is all same except color, plus Dose has dosing function, but while Pure and Color felt very cheap and plasticy (and that cheap looking shine too), Dose had a decent quialty matte paint/color and looked much better. I wouldn't mind spending $50 extra for better looks and dosing function as I will be keeping it for a long time.
You're right that I might find out that I don't like espresso as much as I thought, but I really do like Latte/Capuccino and buy from Starbucks etc. almost everyday, so it'll save me some money now. (though I don't know how good the steaming/frothing function is on that machine)
I didn't buy it there today because I can get it for at least $100 cheaper from an online retailer. I'm going to order one on Monday first thing. Can't wait to make my own Latte! I know I'm going to need patience and trial&error, but I'm sure I'm going to enjoy that process.
Anyway, there goes my experience with the machines. I really appreciate your insight, it has totally changed my decision.

p.s by the way I did visit the Gaggia Yahoo user group, but they rarely talk about the low end machines...so I couldn't get much out of it but that's ok because you helped me!